While rendering in DPL 5.* seems to be mostly identical, DPL6 renders “Neutral Color” quite differently, even if WCS is set to “Legacy”. Sadly enough, this change is not mentioned in the update window or in the release notes.
Such changes should not be done in a dot release
If such things are done, they should be communicated
“Fixing” things in a release n-1 in view of something that does not work well in release n is a no-go, specially if it makes release n-1 look as bad as release n.
@platypus On DxPL Windows I don’t see any changes in the menu items between PL5.5.0 and PL5.7.0, you have to hover over the last entry to get the full details with DxPL(Win)
However when I was testing trying to get consistent results between tests was more of a nightmare than it should have been but I believe that the results are accurate so we certainly have differences between the outputs from PL5.5.0 and PL5.7.0 on Windows, in this case showing as different file sizes for the exported files for a start!?
the change that’s been done is just the naming: the one that was named “Neutral color, realistic tonality (Gamma 2.2)” / “Neutrale Farben, realistische Tonalität (Gamma 2,2)” is now named simply “Neutral color” / “Neutrale Farben”. Thisis the same rendering behind the scenes, and will have the same result.
While rendering in DPL 5. seems to be mostly identical, DPL6 renders “Neutral Color” quite differently, even if WCS is set to “Legacy”. Sadly enough, this change is not mentioned in the update window or in the release notes.*
I’ve also been comparing PL 5.5.0 and PL 6.2.0 behavior regarding the various neutral renderings. Please try this: In PL6: Classic (Legacy) color space; optical corrections only; WB = As Shot; no DxO Smart Lighting; Color Rendering = Generic renderings – Neutral color.
In my set up, this produces seemingly identical images / histograms to that produced in PL 5.5.0 using the same options as above except choosing Neutral Color, Realistic tonality (gamma 2.2).
This may be what Barbara-S is trying to tell us.
My set up: Leica Q DNG raw files with in-camera aRGB jpeg setting; aRGB display.
"@eriepa I am sorry but unless I am doing my tests incorrectly that statement is incorrect PL5.7.0 simply does not produce the same image as PL5.5.0 for any of the “so called” “neutral” options.
1. The sizes of the exported JPGs differ 2. the bit maps are simply not the same"
Both statements are correct but the differences between the two releases is minute and not as bad as in my post.
The reasons for such a wide discrepancy with the original tests remained a mystery or rather it was until I output PL5.7.0 at different %ages when the problem became clear, somehow I had selected 96% for PL5.7.0 not 97% which is my normal amount and the amount I had used for the PL5.5 tests.
I must apologise to DxO and the forum members for my lapse in concentration, now back to the real world with 100%.
The following Tests are what prompted my re-investigation of the problems with my original test report.
and the PL5.7.0 images appear to correspond exactly to the PL6.2.0 images, both in size and image content, notwithstanding the name change.
@eriepa unless I have done my tests incorrectly (I only tested PL5.5 against PL5.7 for my earlier post) PL5.7 and PL6.2 produce exactly the same results, as I stated above.
Please supply snapshots or an image with the PL5.7.0 DOP and the PL6.2.0 DOP so we can test them.
If the differences were on an earlier PL6.x.x release then please identify that release so that we can test it.
I just tested on PL6.1.0 and PL6.1.1 and the exported images do not agree with PL5.5.0, PL5.7.0 or PL6.2.0 (the latter two of which now appear to the identical).
So there appears to have been a change to restore the original renders in release PL6.2.0?
PS:-@Barbara-S I apologise for “maligning” DxO with respect to the PL5.5 versus PL5.7 tests, ther are differences where there should be none but they are tiny compared with my original report which was an error on my behalf!
Why was DxPL 6 released with the differences without
Tests to verify that no differences existed, much as I have done (hopefully correctly this time). Please purchase a copy of Beyond Compare for both platforms, download the various image extensions and use it to compare outputs when things are supposed to be the same (I do not get an commission from any software manufacturer and never have)
If any such changes exist then users should be warned and if DxO did not know about the changes they most certainly should have, i.e. we either have negligence in reporting to the user base or negligence in testing and there is no excuse on either account.
The reversion to the old render “scheme” should have been made clear in the PL6.2.0 release notes, if it was I will need to apologise
@Wolfgang The options give different “neutral” renders between them it is true but you have options as to which “neutral” you prefer. But they also gave different renders between different releases (until now, almost still a teensy weensy niggle between PL5.5 and PL5.7) as my report above indicates.
@eriepa as a direct result of your remarks I revisited my PL5.5.0 to PL5.7.0 tests and found the errors in my testing and changed them and added PL5.7 (and PL5.5) compared to PL6.2.0 tests (and then PL6.1.0 and PL6.1.1 tests).
It was your remark that triggered my testing and it was to your remark I was responding while revising my remarks to @platypus
I think you continue to obfuscate the situation, but whatever. Let’s move on.
Yesterday in this topic, I elaborated on my methods and results comparing the various neutral color rendering options in PL5.5.0 vs. PL6.2.0. What I found was, from specified initial settings, the Neutral Color, Realistic tonality (gamma 2.2) in PL5.5.0 seems identical to the PL6.2.0 Neutral color rendering.
I posted additional details earlier today in the topic concerning camera-specific “linear” profiles. I paraphrase that post then add additional observations and comments below.
I’ve been comparing PL 5.5.0 and PL 6.2.0 behavior regarding the various neutral renderings. Please try this: In PL6: Classic (Legacy) color space; optical corrections only; WB = As Shot; no DxO Smart Lighting; Color Rendering = Generic renderings: Neutral color.
In my set up, this produces identical TIFF images / histograms to that produced in PL 5.5.0 using the same options as above except choosing Neutral Color, Realistic tonality (gamma 2.2).
The other three PL5.5.0 neutral renderings result in distinctly different images / histograms for their TIFF outputs. To date, I have found nothing in PL6.2.0 like these three other neutral settings, nor do I expect to find any.
Take note that the initial starting settings are critical in making these comparisons. The DxO wide gamut setting, one example, will produce different images / histograms that have no counterpart apparently in any of the PL5.5.0 neutral color renderings.
My set up: Leica Q DNG raw files; aRGB display; images exported to disc as 16-bit TIFFs with an embedded Adobe RGB 1998 profile, then examined in a number of different applications.
Regarding your methodology, I suggest you switch to full-size TIFFs and specify your exact initial settings. Thanks.
@eriepa I am sorry that you feel I am trying to “fudge” the issue in some way that is the furthest thing from my intentions.
From my perspective there is no difference between PL5.7 and PL6.2 for the 4 ‘Neutral options’, the JPGs are the same size and Beyond Compare bit by bit comparisons shows no difference between images, i.e.
The first 3 items match in title between the two releases and the fourth is ‘Neutral color, realistic tonality (gamma 2.2)’ in PL5.7.0 and just ‘Neutral color’ in PL6.2.0 and in spite of the title I have tested these in the “hope” that they will be the same, i.e. that there is continuity for the user in spite of a change in name within the product.
So, after discovering that I had managed to set some options on in the PL5.7.0 copies (when they should have been off !?) I finally got what I had before, all JPGs are identical between the PL5.7.0 exports and the PL6.2.0 exports and then exporting to TIFFs gives even bigger files but they are identical in size and in contents, I haven’t used my eyes or histograms just a bit by bit software comparison.
@eriepa I am sorry but I don’t see any difference between PL5.7.0 exports and PL6.2.0 exports, on my Windows system, which was not the case with previous PL5.x.x exports and PL6.0.x and 6.1.x releases.
I had trouble with the re-runs because options had been turned on in the PL5.7.0 product and I am not sure I understand how or why that happened but when I returned all the settings to the settings I used (the ones that you suggested should be used) I got back to my original conclusion and repeating with TIFF just confirmed it
Hence I believe that DxO have restored the settings to their original intent, i.e. exports from PL6 should now match those from PL5 with respect to the ‘Neutral’ options with the ‘Legacy’ gamut scheme set in PL6.