Integration and compitability of PL6 and FastRawViewer for culling and rating

Putting those pieces-of-info together, Rob (and guessing that you probably move images from your FINISHED folder into some sort of archive location) - suggests to me you’re not making use of any of PL’s DAM features … This is pretty much how I work too.

In which case, provided you have PL set-up to use sidecar/.dop files (PL’s default config) - and you store these with your archived RAWs, then you don’t need the database at all … and I find that makes things much easier / less complicated … eg. no spurious Virtual Copies, etc.

I use a “wrapper” to delete the database (and the cache) before invoking PL.

John M

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John, I have been using your wrapper with PL5 and not using the PL database has worked very well for me. Do you have an updated version of it for PL6? If so, I would sure appreciate your sharing it.

Thanks, Rod

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Certainly, Rod.

Here 'tis: DeleteDxO(PL60)ImageCache&database.zip (49.8 KB)

File with .CMD suffix is the interactive version … One with .EXE suffix is the “silent” compiled version.

Use with care: If you run either of these “wrappers”, it will delete your PL database !

John M

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I only make limited use of the PL DAM. The very last activity before exporting images in my workflow is to assign keywords to the finished RAW file in PL.

Rob

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I only use virtual copies on the rare occasion that I want a different edit of an image, such as a different crop, where I don’t want to compromise what I have already done.

Rob

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Much of this has been covered by other posts albeit with problems but

  1. Yes, up to 10 programs can be configured and it is possible to pass multiple selected images to DxPL in one operation (on Win 10 certainly) from the same directory. In Win 10 they come is as a form of 'Project" referred to as an ‘External Selection’

“Launching” from FRV:-

Opening in the DxPL ‘Customize’ screen:-

Shown as an ‘External Selection’ on Win10 in the 'PhotoLibrary screen:-

  1. Yes & NO!? Please see my post @ Integration and compitability of PL6 and FastRawViewer for culling and rating - #9 by BHAYT for the full details but FRV will write the details immediately but whether DxPL will find them automatically depends on you choice of AS(ON) or AS(OFF) for metadata handling!

Currently AS(OFF) in my PL6 but the choice of ON or OFF determines the automatic response from DxPL.

IF AS(OFF) then a ‘File’/‘Metadata’/‘Read from Image’ for one or more images will cause the Metadata for all selected images to be refreshed (at the expense of any metadata changes in the DxPLDb being lost, if there were any such “pending” changes)

But with AS(OFF) the ‘Conflict Resolution’ icon will have been set when the change was detected by DxPL

Hovering on the ‘S’ gives details about the mismatch and clicking on the ‘S’ gives the following

and the result is

  1. Yes but definitely NO. FRV never updates directly only when requested (please see updates to the post identified above).

  2. Exactly the same applies to colour labels as to star ratings as stated in 2 above.

  3. Same as 3 above.

  4. Yes, please see my post in DeepPrime XD doing nothing - #10 by BHAYT where I was comparing RAW with DeepPRIME JPG and (same) RAW with DeepPRIME XD JPG using the sharpness overlay to highlight noise!

  5. I will leave this item to others who have a more “rigorous” workflow than I do. I use FRV primarily to weed out images that are less sharp when I have multiple copies. It is extremely customisable and can be configured to move/rename DOPs as well as xmp sidecars when an image is consigned to one “bin” or another! The various commands can be re-assigned to create your own cluster of keys to allow quick despatch of a file(and it’s hangers on) to one directory or another or simply skip to the next file!

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@KameraD On Win 10 I converted the items I used in my last post to a project and with the project selected in ‘PhotoLibrary’ I passed a new image from FRV and it came over as a new ‘External Selection’ (we had discussions about ‘External selections’ on Win 10 versus what happens on Mac some time ago)!

Repeated starting with PL6 in ‘Customize’ with project selected

Passed another image from FRV to PL6 and no image at all on the ‘Customize’ which I thought I had seen before @sgospodarenko!

But returning to the ‘PhotoLibrary’ screen the selected item is there! As are the projects and the various selections I have been testing!

Selected two new items and passed to PL6 and all O.K.

Single image launch failed again blank ‘Customize’ screen but there on the ‘PhotoLibrary’ screen @sgospodarenko.

So @KameraD not quite such a disaster on Win10 PPL6 but not perfect either with single images it appears and I need to do more tests to see if there is an absolutely repeatable pattern I usually pass from FastStone Image Viewer but it can pass only one at a time successfully but will also test with XnViewMP.

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Good I just did it for testing and trying to help the original poster, Doron. I normally never send picture via FRW to PL. I only use FRW for culling, rating and moving bad pics to rejected folder. The workflows here are so different, that some people never drive into problems, which makes others nuts :wink:

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Thanks John for pointing me to this post. I didn’t follow it, because this is not my workflow.
Besides this, I also don’t have this “Live Review” function. Live Rückblick should be the german translation. No matter what I try, doesn’t show up. Also don’t really understand, what it should be good for :wink:

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Thanks very much John. Really appreciate your sharing! :slight_smile:

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Thanks a bunch for this information. I think it explains the troubles I had in my tests quite well.

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Thank you each one and one of you for the detailed explanations, screen shots, tips and workflow descriptions.
for me it was very helpful and educating, hope it’s the same for others too.
Now I understand that since these two pieces of software are from two different vendors, for the long term I should relay more on Sub folders (nice to know that I can configure FRV to create “selected” folder too). Otherwise any sync method which is working now with PL6 and FRV, may not be compatible on PL7 or PL8 versions.
The screen shot on one hand helps to understand how sync works, on the other hand they will help to configure some important settings in PL such as: “Synchronize metadata with XMP sidecar file”.
And some settings in FRV like: setting “external Editors” or using the option of: “Move current file to _Selected sub folder” in FRV, hope I can assign shortcut for this action like the Ctrl+Shift+Del for _Rejected sub folder.
Right now since I’m using PL4 which doesn’t even have “Synchronize metadata with XMP sidecar file” setting , I am waiting for Black Friday in order to upgrade to PL6. After B.F. I will update about my experience.
Thanks

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In which case, Rob - you will probably not want to delete your database - because that’s where DAM-related metadata is stored … not in the sidecar/.dop file.

John M

Just downloaded that FRV and after a short experience I can tell that calling it a Culling and rating tool is an understatement.
It is so easy to use, so intuitive and most important so photography oriented.
Any new feature that you learn about, you say to yourself: This is exactly what I need.
Up till now I did:

  1. Setting “Del” key to move the image into _Rejected folder.
  2. Setting “Ins” key to move the image into _Selected folder.
  3. Checking focus peaking
  4. Checking highlights and shadows
  5. Checking overexposure and underexposure
  6. Using multi-image window for similar images comparison, and comparing acording to 3, 4, 5 above.
  • Star rating is reflected on my PL4 version too. And vise versa.
    I believe I will use star rating on FRV in order to rate those images that were not moved to the _selected folder, but they are worth rethinking for editing.
  • Color rating - well I will have to wait for PL6 sale on B.F.
    It’s a great piece of software
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@cohen5538 It is an excellent piece of software and you can thank me for the right mouse click for the ‘Reload’ feature, but only for asking, and the author for checking out the feasibility and implementing the feature when I asked, to save having to go to the ‘Files’ menu every time! I put the idea/request forward one day and received the following the next, i.e.

"Dear Bryan:

It takes less than expected, here are new build links:

Changes:

  1. Menu - File - Reload file is active in both Grid and Single File View modes

  2. Reload file (also) refreshes metadata displayed in Grid/Filmstrip

  3. Reload file is available via context menu in both main (single view) window and in grid/filmstrip

  4. If several files are selected (checkmarked), Reload (via Menu - File or via context menu on filmstrip/grid) will update metadata for these files.

  5. There is a new Preferences setting: Thumbnail cache - (Thumbnail/Metadata fetcher subsection) - Reread thumbnails on file reload.

If not checked (default: checked), metadata refresh will re-read EXIF and XMP only, not thumbnail, this is much faster.

  1. If separate batch shortcuts are used, there is a new command Menu - Select/Batch - Batch reload files to reload selected files (with separate batch shortcuts enabled, Menu - File -… works on current file only).

Your feedback is always welcome,"

I have attached my own keyboard customisations as a PDF just out of interest but it is important to customise to your own needs etc. 2022-10-16_084036_BHAYT FRV keyboard shortcuts.pdf (3.1 MB)

However, all is not necessarily plain sailing all the way with FRV!? It favours xmp sidecar files and the only place they are considered appropriate is with RAW files, unless you are a Capture One user. So you can discover xmp sidecars being added to JPGs if you don’t choose the right options.

My settings are

I am concerned about the ‘Check Metadata tag’ because I am not sure all software even puts that in and most do what is offered by the FRV alternative which is to always use the sidecar but other forum users may have better ideas for these settings!?

However, changing a TIF in FRV created an xmp file but PL6 picked up the change so I believe that FRV is changing the embedded data and creating a sidecar file!

The files just after PL6 creates another copy of a TIF with no xmp sidecar file!

This is after FRV has changed the ‘Ratings’ and the ‘Label’ and has been detected by PL6 as shown by the ‘S’ icon [AS(OFF)]

and after the metadata has been ‘Read from image’ by PL6

The biggest issue is that the colour labels are not compatible as shown in the snapshots above! FRV can show the colours applied in PL6 but not vice versa!

AS(ON) or AS(OFF) that is the question (or at least a question):-

Please remember that the concern amongst users about not using AS(ON) is largely driven by the risk of DxPL changing the format of keywords whenever metadata is written back to the image, and that reading and writing process is under the control of DxPL, not the user, once the user sets AS(ON). If that keyword data has been placed there by the user’s “favourite” DAM etc. then they are unwilling to see it “damaged” by DxPL, even if the same keyword format will be used for any exported image!

But if the keywords are being set and managed within DxPL then why worry, simply set AS(ON) and “enjoy” the freedom that comes from the simple exchange of metadata updates without any hassle (except incompatible colour labels maybe)!?

But - But - But please remember that the ‘first discovery’ rules reverts to taking the metadata from the image (embedded or sidecar) and not the DOP whenever a “new to the database” image is detected, i.e. the system effectively revert to the pre PL5.3.0 ways, and for that to work any (relevant, i.e. sidecar file accompanying a RAW) must be preserved along with the image and the DOP otherwise the metadata will be “lost”.

All backups, moves and copying of files must the 3 files to ensure data preservation The RAW, the xmp sidecar, and the DOP and the data must make it to the xmp sidecar or the embedded xmp metadata for JPG, TIF & DNG etc.) for those copies to be worth anything!

@John-M You know that I respect the way that you work and disagree with destroying the database, given that I have already saved and then “trashed” databases on PL5.1.4 (Test machine) and PL6 (Main machine) already this morning, in the interests of testing!!

But I disagree that the database is the only source of metadata both the xmp sidecar will contain the metadata automatically with AS(ON) and via the ‘Write to metadata’ command with AS(OFF) and like it or not the metadata has been written to the DOP for the [M]aster and the Virtual copies since before PL4 for ‘Rating’ (‘Rank’) and ‘Rotation’ and for a mass of metadata since PL5.0!

Before PL5.3.0 it was written but never read for the [M]aster, since PL5.3.0 with AS(OFF) it will be the only source of metadata used by PL5.3.0 onwards and PL6 on first discovery unless the user then chooses to execute a ‘Read from image’ immediately after the discovery (importation by any other name) if there are concerns that image metadata changes may have been made after the time of the DOP!!

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Just tested and it is just the other way around for me. FRW does not read colour label and rating applied in PL6. The other way around it works. But I have to manually refresh, see screenshot, because I have sync with xmp sidecar files off.

metadata

“The metadata for this image was changed by another application.
changed by another application. Click on the icon to choose how DxO PhotoLab should
should do with it.”

metadata sync

“The metadata for this image was changed by another application.
Application.
Do you want DxO PhotoLab to read the metadata from the image or to overwrite it
Overwrite the metadata with the data from the database?
Apply to all images in this folder.
Cancel
Write to file
Read from the image”

P.S.
Maybe I have to change the settings in FRW, so reading from PL works. Or settings in PL. No idea, don’t need it for my workflow

@KameraD New test directory

  1. Proposed test 2 JPGs and 2 RAWs

  1. PL6 - Set rating to JPG = 1, RAW = 2, JPG = Blue and RAW = Green and ‘Write to Image’

  1. FRV (FRW) - Open FRV in new directory

Snapshot shows PL6 above after forced ‘Write to image’ AS(OFF) and FRV below after discovering the directory for the first time!

  1. Change in FRV to JPG = 0, 3, Purple, RAW = 5 Yellow

But note that the labels are not colours but labels

So lets change to colour in the FRV preferences

image

I had to redo the colours in FRV otherwise the metadata was not going to be changed and I got the following after a ‘Read from image’ in PL6

BUT this may or may not then be compatible with other software!

The options in FRV are

Please note as I have stated before FRV will always need to have the metadata refreshed it does not discover any changes automatically. PL6 discovers the changes automatically and refreshes automatically with AS(ON) and via the ‘S’ icon with AS(OFF) and then manually updated with AS(OFF) via the ‘S’ icon and the ‘Read from image’, directly invoked or invoked via the ‘S’ icon.

Please note that the ‘Read from image’ and ‘Write to image’ are always available with both AS(ON) and AS(OFF) but the only way a transfer is going to take places with AS(OFF).

Note to DxO:-

May have come up in Beta Testing and it is possible that DxPL can recognise other “labels” but not in the test earlier with the TIF colour not being recognised but we need a ‘Synonym’ table to increase the compatibility with other software @Musashi @sgospodarenko rather than having to make other software fit to the DxO behaviour

How do you export the metadata?

Cannot find a way to do it. Besides this, changed the rating & labels settings as you mentioned. Though it was not necessary for me, because I get this labelling options also with the standard settings. See screenshots.

P.S.
But no problem at all for me, FRW not reading rating or colour label, because I don’t need it. Only how it works for me, from FRW to PL

@KameraD If AS(ON) then there is no need to write metadata explicitly it comes automatically with the option

When AS(OFF) then use

for one or many selected images but cannot specify entire directory only by selecting all files in the directory!

To force a DOP read or write use these

image

Hope that helps.

PS The metadata ‘Read from image’ and ‘Write to image’ are available at all times regardless of AS(ON) or AS(OFF) or whether you think DxPL missed an external change. If an expected change did not materialise in DxPL, when AS(ON) or no ‘S’ with AS(OFF) then try ‘F5’ before forcing a ‘Read from image’!

Please also note AS(ON) synchronisation is successive ‘Read from image’ and ‘Write to image’ but automatically executed when DxPL detects changes, internally or externally. All such operations and the manual executed operations are destructive to the target metadata. If in doubt run with AS(OFF) and force your own writes and periodically back up the image for embedded xmp (JPG, TIF, DNG) and the sidecar files for RAW for safety!

PPS DxPL is no more “dangerous” than any other metadata software, later to the game so able to avoid certain pitfalls, relatively new and a lot of work done in a short amount of time but it seems to be generally O.K once you understand the “wrinkles”/“foibles”.

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Yes, helps absolutely, thanks. This is one of the topics, I until now, did not deal with, because I didn’t really understand the cosequences. And that’s why I didn’t check the box, so as not to mess anything up. At least now I know how to trigger the process manually. But since there is still no need for me, work only with PL6, NikCollection 5 and View Point 4, I leave everything as it is :wink: