Integration and compitability of PL6 and FastRawViewer for culling and rating

Happened to read a post from @uncoy about incorporating FastRawWiewer (FRV) in the workflow for Culling, Rating and Multi-image view & comparison, priced at about 25$
I would like to describe how do I intend to incorporate this tool in my workflow, hope that some of you experienced with this software could give some answers or even some useful tips for using more features of this software.

I intend to have both FRV and PL always opened and active together.
Starting with FRV for:

  1. Rejecting and deleting bad images- I understood that the “deleted” items are actually saved in sub folder named: Rejected.
  2. Rating images to be edited with Stars.
  3. Opening the images in PL, directly from FRV (if possible)
    Than in PL:
  4. Editing an image and rating it with color label. So in the next time I use FRV, I can identify those Raw images that are already were edited in PL.

My questions are:

  1. Can I directly from FRV, open the image in PL to be edited ? (Like “Edit in”)
  2. Are star ratings on FRV carried on to PL? (reflected immediately in PL)
  3. Vise versa to 2) - does any change in star ratings on PL carried on to FRV? (reflected immediately in FRV)
  4. Are Color Labels on FRV carried on to PL? (reflected immediately in PL)
  5. Vise versa to 4) - does any change in Color Labels on PL carried on to FRV? (reflected immediately in FRV)
  6. Multi-image view and comparison- I understood I can compare 2 or 4 images. Could it be a mix of Raw and Jpg (exported) images?
  7. Any better idea how to incorporate FRV into the workflow
    I know I can download the trial version and check it by myself, but I believe this topic may help some other users which were not familiar with this option like me.
    Thanks
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Everyone will have their own way of doing this. What has worked well for me over several years is to use FRV and PL in the following way:

  1. All RAW images are copied from the card into a folder called ROLL
  2. Use FRV to scan and cull images. Discarded images get moved from ROLL into REJECTS folder, those I want to process are moved into a SELECTS folder. This is all easily achieved in FRV.
  3. Process the images in the SELECTS folder in Photolab.
  4. Once an image is finished move it into a FINISHED folder by using PL and export/print from there.
  5. In time and you are confident images in the REJECTS folder are not required then they can be deleted.

Using this process, you know that all photos have been reviewed if the ROLL folder is empty, only the SELCTS folder has images that need to be processed and that will be empty once all processing is completed.

So, I don’t use stars or colours in my selection/culling process. Nor do I edit images from within FRV because I load all my images to be edited in PL from the SELECTS folder.

To answer your questions:

  1. Yes
    2 & 3. Yes to both
    4 & 5 Yes to both
  2. Yes as long as they are in the same folder
  3. See above
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  1. yes


2/3/4&5 I have just tested and yes in all cases.

Rated in FRV…


Read in PL…

Changed in PL…

Updated in FRV…

  1. pretty sure you can but only used it with RAW files.

  2. I stopped using it but for no other reason than I was too invested in LRc and the process I had already formed but having heard good things about FRV.
    my intention is to drop LRc in the future so I will probably begin to use FRV so will also be keeping an eye on this thread.

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Also tried, but FRW only opens PL6, but not the photo selected.

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@KameraD Strange. Both PL5&6 open fine for me and load the correct image.

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So tried again and it is like that. Working in PL5. Working in PL6, but!! When you have a Project selected, or a group folder, it only changes to PL6, without opening the selected photo in FRW. If I have selected any folder in the finder structure, it works. No idea, if this is a bug, or intended.

P.S.
Even more strange. Just saw it now. If a project is selected in PL6 and you tell FRW to open it with PL6, the selected photo is added to the project. What a mess.

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Well outside my knowledge now!

I just tested to answer the OPs questions if possible.

I only use(d) FRV for culling purposes.
All metadata work etc I do I carry out in LRc for now.

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Didn’t work for me:

  • FRV saved the star rating in a .xmp sidecar;
  • PhotoLab 6 saved the star rating in a .dop sidecar;
  • It also looked like PL6 wouldn’t update the star rating in the .dop sidecar (checked using a code editor) until I closed the software, which looks like one of the ramifications of all the PL6 for Mac bugs with file persistence and syncing that have been reported since PL6 came out.

After configuring PL6 to read and write ratings from XMP files, I got:

  • for files that I had rated in PL6 before changing those settings, no amount of changing the rating in FRV or in the XMP file directly was picked up (as if some phantom value from PhotoLab’s internal database always had priority);
  • for other files, ratings and color labels set in FRV showed up in PL6;
  • ratings and color labels set in PL6 didn’t show up in FRV, or they did so erratically.

It’s not a very positive test so far.

Note that some of the issues might be specific to only the macOS version of PL6, or just to my configuration.

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I will try to answer specific queries when I have more time but in the meantime, notwithstanding any “bugs” and operating system variants (intentional or unintentional) the following is what should (I believe) happen.

Please note DOPs are typically updated in a 20 second time period (a DOP update cycle) if not before and always on shutdown (if working correctly).

The first thing to point out is that PL6 can (typically) detect metadata changes automatically when an external editor makes a change but the reaction will be one of the following:-

With AS(ON) (Auto Synchronisation’ or ‘Metadata synchronisation’ selected):-

  1. External changes will be detected automatically in PL6 and reflected in the database, DOP and display.
  2. Changes via PL6 will automatically be reflected in the image metadata (embedded for JPG, TIFF, DNG and sidecar for RAW)
  3. With first encounter, metadata will be taken from the image (embedded or sidecar xmp etc.) except if a PL4 or earlier DOP is encountered when the ‘Rating’ (‘Rank’) and ‘Rotation’ are taken from the DOP and all other metadata is taken from the image!

With AS(OFF):-

  1. External changes will be detected automatically in PL6 but no automatic updates will be made to the database or DOP and the display for the image will be marked with an ‘S’ icon. The update to the metadata in PL6 will only be made after the user selects a ‘Read from image’ or selects the ‘S’ icon which will give the option to ‘Read from image’ (or ‘write to image’) and overwrite any metadata in PL6 (or the image)!

  2. No external changes to the image will be made automatically, they will only occur after the execution of a ‘Write to image’.

  3. On first encounter the following will happen
    1 For a PL5 DOP on a PL5 release earlier than PL5.3.0 all metadata will be taken from the image
    2 For a PL5 DOP on the PL5.3.0 and later releases all metadata will be taken from the PL5 DOP
    3 For a PL6 DOP all metadata will be taken from the PL6 DOP (DOPs are typically not backwards compatible)
    4 For a PL4 (or earlier) DOP the ‘Rating’ (‘Rank’) and ‘Rotation’ are taken from the PL4 (or earlier) DOP and all other metadata is taken from the image!

FRV:-

  1. All changes made to the metadata on offer in FRV i.e. ‘Rating’, Rotation’ (‘Orientation’) and ‘Label’ will be made to the image metadata immediately.

  2. No external changes made to the metadata are automatically detected by FRV, they will be detected after
    1 A ‘Reload’ file is executed (on right mouse click)
    2 A ‘Reload file(s)’ is executed when more than one file is selected
    3 A ‘Files’/‘Reload’/‘Metadata for x Files’ or ‘Reload’/‘Metadata for ’ or ‘Reload current folder’ is executed

Or so my tests on DxPL on Win 10 have shown and are still showing on PL6!

FRV Right Mouse click Reload File:-

FRV Right Mouse Click Reload Files:-

FRV Reload from Menu:-

FRV Reload from Menu with a single file selected:-

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Rob, thanks very much for posting your workflow. I have been using colors to show what needs to be done, but it’s very easy to overlook those that need work! Your system only requires that I periodically check those folders.

I just need to integrate your workflow into my Photo Supreme DAM which should not be a problem.

Also I don’t understand how people can properly rate their images prior to editing. Things can change a lot in that process which would necessitate re-rating. I always rate after all processing is done.

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That’s probably related to this

John M

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Putting those pieces-of-info together, Rob (and guessing that you probably move images from your FINISHED folder into some sort of archive location) - suggests to me you’re not making use of any of PL’s DAM features … This is pretty much how I work too.

In which case, provided you have PL set-up to use sidecar/.dop files (PL’s default config) - and you store these with your archived RAWs, then you don’t need the database at all … and I find that makes things much easier / less complicated … eg. no spurious Virtual Copies, etc.

I use a “wrapper” to delete the database (and the cache) before invoking PL.

John M

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John, I have been using your wrapper with PL5 and not using the PL database has worked very well for me. Do you have an updated version of it for PL6? If so, I would sure appreciate your sharing it.

Thanks, Rod

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Certainly, Rod.

Here 'tis: DeleteDxO(PL60)ImageCache&database.zip (49.8 KB)

File with .CMD suffix is the interactive version … One with .EXE suffix is the “silent” compiled version.

Use with care: If you run either of these “wrappers”, it will delete your PL database !

John M

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I only make limited use of the PL DAM. The very last activity before exporting images in my workflow is to assign keywords to the finished RAW file in PL.

Rob

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I only use virtual copies on the rare occasion that I want a different edit of an image, such as a different crop, where I don’t want to compromise what I have already done.

Rob

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Much of this has been covered by other posts albeit with problems but

  1. Yes, up to 10 programs can be configured and it is possible to pass multiple selected images to DxPL in one operation (on Win 10 certainly) from the same directory. In Win 10 they come is as a form of 'Project" referred to as an ‘External Selection’

“Launching” from FRV:-

Opening in the DxPL ‘Customize’ screen:-

Shown as an ‘External Selection’ on Win10 in the 'PhotoLibrary screen:-

  1. Yes & NO!? Please see my post @ Integration and compitability of PL6 and FastRawViewer for culling and rating - #9 by BHAYT for the full details but FRV will write the details immediately but whether DxPL will find them automatically depends on you choice of AS(ON) or AS(OFF) for metadata handling!

Currently AS(OFF) in my PL6 but the choice of ON or OFF determines the automatic response from DxPL.

IF AS(OFF) then a ‘File’/‘Metadata’/‘Read from Image’ for one or more images will cause the Metadata for all selected images to be refreshed (at the expense of any metadata changes in the DxPLDb being lost, if there were any such “pending” changes)

But with AS(OFF) the ‘Conflict Resolution’ icon will have been set when the change was detected by DxPL

Hovering on the ‘S’ gives details about the mismatch and clicking on the ‘S’ gives the following

and the result is

  1. Yes but definitely NO. FRV never updates directly only when requested (please see updates to the post identified above).

  2. Exactly the same applies to colour labels as to star ratings as stated in 2 above.

  3. Same as 3 above.

  4. Yes, please see my post in DeepPrime XD doing nothing - #10 by BHAYT where I was comparing RAW with DeepPRIME JPG and (same) RAW with DeepPRIME XD JPG using the sharpness overlay to highlight noise!

  5. I will leave this item to others who have a more “rigorous” workflow than I do. I use FRV primarily to weed out images that are less sharp when I have multiple copies. It is extremely customisable and can be configured to move/rename DOPs as well as xmp sidecars when an image is consigned to one “bin” or another! The various commands can be re-assigned to create your own cluster of keys to allow quick despatch of a file(and it’s hangers on) to one directory or another or simply skip to the next file!

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@KameraD On Win 10 I converted the items I used in my last post to a project and with the project selected in ‘PhotoLibrary’ I passed a new image from FRV and it came over as a new ‘External Selection’ (we had discussions about ‘External selections’ on Win 10 versus what happens on Mac some time ago)!

Repeated starting with PL6 in ‘Customize’ with project selected

Passed another image from FRV to PL6 and no image at all on the ‘Customize’ which I thought I had seen before @sgospodarenko!

But returning to the ‘PhotoLibrary’ screen the selected item is there! As are the projects and the various selections I have been testing!

Selected two new items and passed to PL6 and all O.K.

Single image launch failed again blank ‘Customize’ screen but there on the ‘PhotoLibrary’ screen @sgospodarenko.

So @KameraD not quite such a disaster on Win10 PPL6 but not perfect either with single images it appears and I need to do more tests to see if there is an absolutely repeatable pattern I usually pass from FastStone Image Viewer but it can pass only one at a time successfully but will also test with XnViewMP.

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Good I just did it for testing and trying to help the original poster, Doron. I normally never send picture via FRW to PL. I only use FRW for culling, rating and moving bad pics to rejected folder. The workflows here are so different, that some people never drive into problems, which makes others nuts :wink:

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Thanks John for pointing me to this post. I didn’t follow it, because this is not my workflow.
Besides this, I also don’t have this “Live Review” function. Live Rückblick should be the german translation. No matter what I try, doesn’t show up. Also don’t really understand, what it should be good for :wink:

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