Thanks very much John. Really appreciate your sharing!
Thanks a bunch for this information. I think it explains the troubles I had in my tests quite well.
Thank you each one and one of you for the detailed explanations, screen shots, tips and workflow descriptions.
for me it was very helpful and educating, hope itâs the same for others too.
Now I understand that since these two pieces of software are from two different vendors, for the long term I should relay more on Sub folders (nice to know that I can configure FRV to create âselectedâ folder too). Otherwise any sync method which is working now with PL6 and FRV, may not be compatible on PL7 or PL8 versions.
The screen shot on one hand helps to understand how sync works, on the other hand they will help to configure some important settings in PL such as: âSynchronize metadata with XMP sidecar fileâ.
And some settings in FRV like: setting âexternal Editorsâ or using the option of: âMove current file to _Selected sub folderâ in FRV, hope I can assign shortcut for this action like the Ctrl+Shift+Del for _Rejected sub folder.
Right now since Iâm using PL4 which doesnât even have âSynchronize metadata with XMP sidecar fileâ setting , I am waiting for Black Friday in order to upgrade to PL6. After B.F. I will update about my experience.
Thanks
In which case, Rob - you will probably not want to delete your database - because thatâs where DAM-related metadata is stored ⌠not in the sidecar/.dop file.
John M
Just downloaded that FRV and after a short experience I can tell that calling it a Culling and rating tool is an understatement.
It is so easy to use, so intuitive and most important so photography oriented.
Any new feature that you learn about, you say to yourself: This is exactly what I need.
Up till now I did:
- Setting âDelâ key to move the image into _Rejected folder.
- Setting âInsâ key to move the image into _Selected folder.
- Checking focus peaking
- Checking highlights and shadows
- Checking overexposure and underexposure
- Using multi-image window for similar images comparison, and comparing acording to 3, 4, 5 above.
- Star rating is reflected on my PL4 version too. And vise versa.
I believe I will use star rating on FRV in order to rate those images that were not moved to the _selected folder, but they are worth rethinking for editing. - Color rating - well I will have to wait for PL6 sale on B.F.
Itâs a great piece of software
@cohen5538 It is an excellent piece of software and you can thank me for the right mouse click for the âReloadâ feature, but only for asking, and the author for checking out the feasibility and implementing the feature when I asked, to save having to go to the âFilesâ menu every time! I put the idea/request forward one day and received the following the next, i.e.
"Dear Bryan:
It takes less than expected, here are new build links:
Changes:
-
Menu - File - Reload file is active in both Grid and Single File View modes
-
Reload file (also) refreshes metadata displayed in Grid/Filmstrip
-
Reload file is available via context menu in both main (single view) window and in grid/filmstrip
-
If several files are selected (checkmarked), Reload (via Menu - File or via context menu on filmstrip/grid) will update metadata for these files.
-
There is a new Preferences setting: Thumbnail cache - (Thumbnail/Metadata fetcher subsection) - Reread thumbnails on file reload.
If not checked (default: checked), metadata refresh will re-read EXIF and XMP only, not thumbnail, this is much faster.
- If separate batch shortcuts are used, there is a new command Menu - Select/Batch - Batch reload files to reload selected files (with separate batch shortcuts enabled, Menu - File -⌠works on current file only).
Your feedback is always welcome,"
I have attached my own keyboard customisations as a PDF just out of interest but it is important to customise to your own needs etc. 2022-10-16_084036_BHAYT FRV keyboard shortcuts.pdf (3.1 MB)
However, all is not necessarily plain sailing all the way with FRV!? It favours xmp sidecar files and the only place they are considered appropriate is with RAW files, unless you are a Capture One user. So you can discover xmp sidecars being added to JPGs if you donât choose the right options.
My settings are
I am concerned about the âCheck Metadata tagâ because I am not sure all software even puts that in and most do what is offered by the FRV alternative which is to always use the sidecar but other forum users may have better ideas for these settings!?
However, changing a TIF in FRV created an xmp file but PL6 picked up the change so I believe that FRV is changing the embedded data and creating a sidecar file!
The files just after PL6 creates another copy of a TIF with no xmp sidecar file!
This is after FRV has changed the âRatingsâ and the âLabelâ and has been detected by PL6 as shown by the âSâ icon [AS(OFF)]
and after the metadata has been âRead from imageâ by PL6
The biggest issue is that the colour labels are not compatible as shown in the snapshots above! FRV can show the colours applied in PL6 but not vice versa!
AS(ON) or AS(OFF) that is the question (or at least a question):-
Please remember that the concern amongst users about not using AS(ON) is largely driven by the risk of DxPL changing the format of keywords whenever metadata is written back to the image, and that reading and writing process is under the control of DxPL, not the user, once the user sets AS(ON). If that keyword data has been placed there by the userâs âfavouriteâ DAM etc. then they are unwilling to see it âdamagedâ by DxPL, even if the same keyword format will be used for any exported image!
But if the keywords are being set and managed within DxPL then why worry, simply set AS(ON) and âenjoyâ the freedom that comes from the simple exchange of metadata updates without any hassle (except incompatible colour labels maybe)!?
But - But - But please remember that the âfirst discoveryâ rules reverts to taking the metadata from the image (embedded or sidecar) and not the DOP whenever a ânew to the databaseâ image is detected, i.e. the system effectively revert to the pre PL5.3.0 ways, and for that to work any (relevant, i.e. sidecar file accompanying a RAW) must be preserved along with the image and the DOP otherwise the metadata will be âlostâ.
All backups, moves and copying of files must the 3 files to ensure data preservation The RAW, the xmp sidecar, and the DOP and the data must make it to the xmp sidecar or the embedded xmp metadata for JPG, TIF & DNG etc.) for those copies to be worth anything!
@John-M You know that I respect the way that you work and disagree with destroying the database, given that I have already saved and then âtrashedâ databases on PL5.1.4 (Test machine) and PL6 (Main machine) already this morning, in the interests of testing!!
But I disagree that the database is the only source of metadata both the xmp sidecar will contain the metadata automatically with AS(ON) and via the âWrite to metadataâ command with AS(OFF) and like it or not the metadata has been written to the DOP for the [M]aster and the Virtual copies since before PL4 for âRatingâ (âRankâ) and âRotationâ and for a mass of metadata since PL5.0!
Before PL5.3.0 it was written but never read for the [M]aster, since PL5.3.0 with AS(OFF) it will be the only source of metadata used by PL5.3.0 onwards and PL6 on first discovery unless the user then chooses to execute a âRead from imageâ immediately after the discovery (importation by any other name) if there are concerns that image metadata changes may have been made after the time of the DOP!!
Just tested and it is just the other way around for me. FRW does not read colour label and rating applied in PL6. The other way around it works. But I have to manually refresh, see screenshot, because I have sync with xmp sidecar files off.
âThe metadata for this image was changed by another application.
changed by another application. Click on the icon to choose how DxO PhotoLab should
should do with it.â
âThe metadata for this image was changed by another application.
Application.
Do you want DxO PhotoLab to read the metadata from the image or to overwrite it
Overwrite the metadata with the data from the database?
Apply to all images in this folder.
Cancel
Write to file
Read from the imageâ
P.S.
Maybe I have to change the settings in FRW, so reading from PL works. Or settings in PL. No idea, donât need it for my workflow
@KameraD New test directory
- Proposed test 2 JPGs and 2 RAWs
- PL6 - Set rating to JPG = 1, RAW = 2, JPG = Blue and RAW = Green and âWrite to Imageâ
- FRV (FRW) - Open FRV in new directory
Snapshot shows PL6 above after forced âWrite to imageâ AS(OFF) and FRV below after discovering the directory for the first time!
- Change in FRV to JPG = 0, 3, Purple, RAW = 5 Yellow
But note that the labels are not colours but labels
So lets change to colour in the FRV preferences
I had to redo the colours in FRV otherwise the metadata was not going to be changed and I got the following after a âRead from imageâ in PL6
BUT this may or may not then be compatible with other software!
The options in FRV are
Please note as I have stated before FRV will always need to have the metadata refreshed it does not discover any changes automatically. PL6 discovers the changes automatically and refreshes automatically with AS(ON) and via the âSâ icon with AS(OFF) and then manually updated with AS(OFF) via the âSâ icon and the âRead from imageâ, directly invoked or invoked via the âSâ icon.
Please note that the âRead from imageâ and âWrite to imageâ are always available with both AS(ON) and AS(OFF) but the only way a transfer is going to take places with AS(OFF).
Note to DxO:-
May have come up in Beta Testing and it is possible that DxPL can recognise other âlabelsâ but not in the test earlier with the TIF colour not being recognised but we need a âSynonymâ table to increase the compatibility with other software @Musashi @sgospodarenko rather than having to make other software fit to the DxO behaviour
How do you export the metadata?
Cannot find a way to do it. Besides this, changed the rating & labels settings as you mentioned. Though it was not necessary for me, because I get this labelling options also with the standard settings. See screenshots.
P.S.
But no problem at all for me, FRW not reading rating or colour label, because I donât need it. Only how it works for me, from FRW to PL
@KameraD If AS(ON) then there is no need to write metadata explicitly it comes automatically with the option
When AS(OFF) then use
for one or many selected images but cannot specify entire directory only by selecting all files in the directory!
To force a DOP read or write use these
Hope that helps.
PS The metadata âRead from imageâ and âWrite to imageâ are available at all times regardless of AS(ON) or AS(OFF) or whether you think DxPL missed an external change. If an expected change did not materialise in DxPL, when AS(ON) or no âSâ with AS(OFF) then try âF5â before forcing a âRead from imageâ!
Please also note AS(ON) synchronisation is successive âRead from imageâ and âWrite to imageâ but automatically executed when DxPL detects changes, internally or externally. All such operations and the manual executed operations are destructive to the target metadata. If in doubt run with AS(OFF) and force your own writes and periodically back up the image for embedded xmp (JPG, TIF, DNG) and the sidecar files for RAW for safety!
PPS DxPL is no more âdangerousâ than any other metadata software, later to the game so able to avoid certain pitfalls, relatively new and a lot of work done in a short amount of time but it seems to be generally O.K once you understand the âwrinklesâ/âfoiblesâ.
Yes, helps absolutely, thanks. This is one of the topics, I until now, did not deal with, because I didnât really understand the cosequences. And thatâs why I didnât check the box, so as not to mess anything up. At least now I know how to trigger the process manually. But since there is still no need for me, work only with PL6, NikCollection 5 and View Point 4, I leave everything as it is
Iâve used FastRawViewer for quite some time, but probably everyone has their own way of doing things.
- You can delete files in FastRawViewer, or âmove to the Rejected folderâ. They are two separated actions, do not confuse them .
- You can setup DxO PL as an âexternal programâ in FastRawViewer. This needs to be done manually, one time, though.
- You then have a hotkey in FRV to âpass to dxoâ. If DxO PL is not started yet, it will start it. If it is already started, it will open the file.
- This seems to only work ok one file at a time though. DxO creates âan external selectionâ, a project with just the one active file from FRV in it. Depending on what you expected, this is perfect or not what you wanted .
I canât tell you anything about metadata, because I donât use FRV or DxO for that. So I never checked or bothered.
I have a pretty crude workflow. I open the image card folder directly in FRV, and go through it to inspect files. I move things to the rejected folder that I donât want to keep. Then in the end, when Iâm left with what I want to keep, I use the âCopy to folderâ option from FRV to copy everything from the memory card to my system. I close FRV.
I open the folder I copied the files to, transfer them to my cloud-backup and/or my local external drive backup when Iâm home - I always do this first before I delete files by accident.
Then I open the folder in DxO and start working on it.
This way I donât ever remove images from the memory card, they go to the rejected folder. I donât ever remove the âkeepersâ as well. Only after the memory card is full (and all my other cards are full) will I think about formatting / removing images from a card. I can go a surprisingly long time before I have to delete something with the size of memory cards these days.
And when I need to make room on a memory card, I start first by removing the rejected folder.
This way I have backups locally at my home for when my cloud provider has âissuesâ or account problems. I have my cloud provider for when the backup drive at home fails.
And I have files on my laptop(s) or my home computer to work on (I never work âonâ the backup drive). If I need to go into my collection or edit some older pic on the road, I can always access them through my online cloud backups.
And since I only delete from the memory card when I really have it (preferring to use another card in my bag instead of deleting files from the current memory card), I can often quickly take a file from the memory card again if I screw something up on my computer somehow⌠or a âpicked photoâ turns out to not be a great pick and I want to look at the burst again to pick another.
@jorismak FRV can pass a number of âselectedâ images to DxPL, but only from the same directory, as follows
In this snapshot FRV is shown above DxPL and I am showing the âPhotoLibraryâ screen to show the âExternal Selectionâ but the actual screen that is opened by such a âRunâ or âlaunchâ is the DxPL âCustomizeâ screen.
FastStone Image Viewer (FSIV) will launch many images but unfortunately these would be many invocations each with one image, except that it doesnât work that way so you only wind up with one image in DxPL, the last one from the selection.
XnViewMP can send âTaggedâ files from multiple directories to DxPL in one pass i.e. XnViewMP âremembersâ âTaggedâ files and via the âViewâ/âTagâ/âShow Tagged Filesâ it will show all the âTaggedâ files it has remembered, even ones that arenât around any more, as I just found out!
The above snapshot has four files from one directory and 2 from another âTaggedâ in XnViewMP, then selected and then passed to PL6. @sgospodarenko this failed and the âCustomizeâ screen showed nothing but the 'PhotoLibrary screen showed all 6 present and correct (as did the âCustomizeâ screen when next invoked).
All windows in the above snapshots are active windows, not some mock up done from a number of snapshots.
I also tend not to delete images so rather than â_Rejectedâ I name my directory as â_Otherâ and FRV comes pre-configured to move the DOPs as well when moving images!
Hmm, nice. I will take another look! I tried it as a little experiment before posting, and when I had two files selected, only one appeared in DxO in the âexternal selectionâ. Maybe I had selected images wrong (because selection-logic in FRV is quite different to, well, everything else).
But as I said, I almost never use that. I just open the folder I copied files into in DxO manually, and I donât go back and forth.
@BHAYT you raised some thoughtful important points about FRV and PL interaction.
- Non Raw images i.e. jpg or tiff without embedded xmp.
- Dealing with XMP sidecar and conflicts with DOP sidecar
- Non conformation of color labels between the two vendors and having to customize color label code in FRV.
- Inclusion of the DOP file, while transferring the image file to a different folder.
As for me, I had one important insight from the posts in this topic, which is: âKISâ - Keep It simple. otherwise, on next updets you can never know which data interface is going to be corrupted.
- I will cull the photographs by using _reject & _Selected sub folders.
- Since I mostly use Raw files, I do not intend to configure xmp sidecars
- For sure I will not use the Color Labels in FRV. Maybe just the star rating on raw files
- Very impotent tip, to be checked in FRV settings.
you are right, checked it on PL4 too. But itâs not such a problem. In PL, right click on the image and selecting âload original image folderâ in the pop up list, and there I am
@cohen5538 Exactly the way that I have been using the product since a free version of OpticsPro 8! I finally bought OpticsPro 11 which is still installed and then DxPL through all releases until now PL6!
However, I have always launched/passed the image from FastStone Image Viewer, applied one or other of my basic presets, copied the settings, âLoad original folderâ and then start pasting the edits, often selecting all and pasting the copy (or a new preset made from the original image) to all the images and further refining on more problematic images.
On a visit to a garden I will typically take 300 - 500 photos (I chronicle the visit). The only âLocal Adjustmentsâ I typically use are âLinear gradientsâ and as PhotoLab introduces more and more features for fine adjustment of an image so it moves further and further away from the original purpose for which I bought it, i.e. quick adjustment of images (at the time I only shot JPG, now JPG + RAW) in bulk and with excellent export capabilities (apart from the nauseating
@Musashi when I always want âUniqueâ, the safest method and it allows me to fix any mess later. There is no session or forever option available - why not!!??).
It still does a good job for me but there are things missing that are available elsewhere and I need to revisit ON1 to see what is on offer now!
I do not have these external selections, this is exactly what I am looking for. Are you using the Mac or Windows version? I am on Windows with PL5.5. For me, it always opens the whole folder in PL and loads all images in the library module, not just the selected ones.
@maderafunk What have you done to break it? Firstly I have the platform software and cameras in my profile title!
So I am on Win 10 and have PL5.5 and PL60 installed and launching from FRV I can pass a number of selected images that form an âExternal Selectionâ, from FSIV only one makes it across and from XnViewMP all tagged items, including from a number of directories can be passed and this is the way that it has always worked for me since DxO OpticsPro 8 but only from FSIV (FastStone) for many years before adding FRV and the during testing late last year I discovered what XnViewMP could manage. I also believe that IrfanView handles this well and will test that later.
After launching one or many images then the whole directory can be selected or a project made from some or all of the images (when sent by FRV or XnViewMP). FSIV is free, as is XnView and Irfanview and FRV has a test period and a reasonable price!
Thanks for your response @BHAYT. I am using digikam (open source). It has an âopen withâ dialog, the same as the open with dialog when you open a picture from the windows explorer. What happens, when you open an individual picture or several from the windows explorer?
Are you saying that the behaviour depends on the software used as image viewer? If so, do you know how they differ and how the images need to be opened? Maybe I could write a plugin for digikam if that is the case.
@maderafunk There was a post that discussed the Command Line Interface DxO Photolab Command line interface.
The last time an issue like this came up it turned out that the originator of the topic had an old version of Photo Mechanic and a very large directory. I also had the buggy version of Photo Mechanic installed, which didnât help Open individual file rather than directory - impossible?!
I have just uninstalled Digikam 7.10 and upgraded to 7.8 and remembered why I gave up on DigiKam!
Attempting to launch to PhotoLab directly sent the whole directory and does so regardless of the package on the other end. With one image selected the âOpen withâ command results in a request to designate a program and the whole directory winds up in that program! If more than one image is selected then that option does not exist at all in the menu!
So we have:-
DigiKam - transfers entire directory but not as an âexternal selectionâ
FSIV transfers multiple files one at a time but only the last one will be seen in DxPL
FRV transfers one or a selection of images (from the same directory)
XnViewMP transfers one or a tagged selection of images (from one of more directories)
IrfanView transfers one or a selection of images to DxPL
I am sorry but you are now on your own with Digikam, I seem to remember reading that the feature was only available on Linux but that might just be my memory playing tricks! Even going via the Light Table does the same thing!
Sorry I am out of ideas!!
Pretty much the same thing! The image directory is opened in the âPhotoLibraryâ as a directory rather than in âCustomizeâ as an âExternal selectionâ.
The issue is that the differentiation between images is lost and as stated above DigiKam doesnât even show the âOpen withâ when multiple images are selected!
PS:-
The best you can do is to assign a âRatingâ or a keyword on PL5.5, a âLabelâ would be available on PL6 and âlaunchâ PL5.5 and then go look for the marked items from amongst however many images you typically have in a directory!?