Posted first in photolab v2.1 thread but decided not to “pollute” that thread so made a new one:
To be clear: i dont’t want to discus this as function in PL 2.x so no discussion if we want or not want this because we are bin there and subject is closed by Fabrizio. I just want to discus this pre-selection methode to gain more knowledge about this. as same as learning about DAM’s.
Bringing a old thing above water just to see which level of pre selection/culling/rating most of us do.
Yes, too simple. The tools do not even look the same. All software, I have ever used, that hosted some external UI, was garbage. Focus problems, refresh problems, styling problems is all, that you get. In additon FRV is not even a DAM, I would have bought it, if it was one. It is only a good tool for culling, not more or less. Event the free Adobe Bridge is more of a DAM.
I didn’t own FRV (my culling and selecting is very simple: is it sharp enough? exposure and composition? keep until otherwise so i don’t need a application more then Faststone image viewer.) and i stumbled acros this FRV tutorial and watched it. eye opener, before this i just saw some commercial video.
This app is a lot more then just culling with some handy tools. Actual pre postprocessing step which is as a step completely separate from a “decent culling and rating and tagging” functionality i visioniced.
Most of that i don’t think i use because i forget it’s possible or i forget to reset the adjusted selection filters.
How many of you guy’s use this kind of pre selection in this deep matter?
It’s a skill of its own as i see this.
Those shadow - highlight - edge - focus indicators are great as judgement tools. i think i would set once the preferences for my camera and be done with it.
The way he is using them is far more sophisticated them would come up with.
Edit 2: (if you start thinking about how you could improve by using less different programs it start to be difficult to set up a neat stable line of app’s.)
looked (quick) at photomechanic, and that looked very extensive in setup correctly.
Being i mind of see which tool can be helping to complete a processing street:
----------------------------------------------------------------- import out sd card
(because mixed video/rawfile/jpeg content i use the photostudio of panasonic because wel a rawfile organisor can’t organise the videofiles so that’s problem 1 for your general media organisor.)
So split in stills and video ,
in rawfiles and oocjpeg sourcefiles and then:
something to cull and archive
something to develop
---------------------------------------------------------------- export to disk as jpeg
something to store for viewing
viewingtool (which contains stills and video content.)
To be honest there is a lot of overlapping in this simple checklist.
And the photomechanic/fastrawviewer/ and such could be overshooting it’s purpose for most of us users.
third legg (which i now not touch) is special things as stacking of focus bracketing/video’s and stitching horizontal and vertical. (if both it creates a high resolution poster) pixel editing as cloning people/things from other image.
I looked at FRV and it is a very interesting program with a huge amount of options to help culling. It think it is best served when using to to decide with image to use from a large grouping of almost identical images. But, I think its too much added work if the goal is to decide among two-four similar images. I think it would take less time to do some quick adjustments in PL at 100% zoom and above to determine which images have the visually most acceptable noise and deep shadow detail retention characteristics to me. There are also many other characteristics of almost any image that would determine which one is a keeper and which is not, other than just the ones with the “best” exposure. I select the images that look best to me and delete the rest. Among the keepers I visually inspect them for sharpness, noise and shadow detail. I may edit two are three images that are very similar and select the best as my final keeper and delete the others. If I was dealing with dozens of similar shots meant for publication I might want to consider FRV, but as it stands, for me, it is way overkill.
i think im in the same street with you.
Those buttons for edge detection, focus detection can also be used in the second step. processing.
those i actually like to see added in dxopl.
But as first step would be a simple metadata editor and xmp creator to setup some keywords, gps /location data and tagging people enough for me.
I am curious how many go through this preselection proces with kind of FRV .
While cullling can be time-consuming I find it a very straightforward process. in any given editing session I generally don’t have more than a few hundred images to go through.
Generally I first delete any where the exposures are truly terrible unless there are no similar shots and I want to try to save that unique image.
I can easily get rid of many more because I don’t care for the composition for a variety of reasons, including boring shots, regardless of whether or not there are similar versions or they are well exposed.
I can easily get rid of many more because they lack the sharpness I wanted without having to view a tool to tell me so.
Finally there are the images that are very similar, with equally good exposure and composition. Selecting the best version may require a lot of visual inspection especially at higher zoom levels.
Occasionally, but not often, I’m down to two photos and cannot decide which one is better. Sometimes I would just choose one to delete and other times I will save both. Looking at the complexity of the FRV functionality it would appear that the culling process for several hundred images would take a lot more time, and I might end up with more technically superior choices, or I might not. However, in the end would those images be any more satisfying then those selected by eye in Photolab in significantly less time?
Yes and this is only the (initial) culling.
Second stage would be tagging, keywording, geotagging, placing info about what where who?
(And FRV isn’t build for that. you need a photomechanic kind of tool for that)
Or just go along in developing?
Leave that bit for the end?
Because in the develop process there are some initial selected images still trashed because of don’t getting it right or they are just to identical.
I my present case is do all the archiving at the end of the line and relay on the simple date/keyword tree on my source side. (But i don’t shoot 10k every month so i can find things easy.)
So i really like to see how/if people who does import 10k images every month are archiving/indexing all at the start.
With this things in mind i can’t wait to see how DxO develops its DAM function because i don’t think i will use extra applications for creating data entry for indexing the rawfiles to benefit fully the search function. (I am more in the mind of slim down the key row of tools so i can be better in handling them.)
I use FRV when I want to examine some “deep information” related to RAW files (because it accesses the actual RAW file information, rather than simply relying on the embedded JPG) … but I don’t use it for any pre-processing purposes. I suspect it’s more useful, in that regard, for LightRoom users - as it avoids having to go thru the time-consuming digestion/cataloguing/DAM process that LR requires.
It’s mostly useful, for PL users, as a reviewing & culling tool - eg. to eliminate shots that are out-of-focus, etc.
Yes, I reckon so too - - especially because PL has a number of tools, for those purposes, that are far beyond the capabilities of FRV
Yes, I agree … FRV takes a very “technical” perspective … when, often, the “best” image is chosen from a subjective perspective - that is, it just looks or “feels” better (especially after processing by PL ! )
Ah so only when you not certain it’s worth keeping?
I used the jpeg version of it Faststone IV, i can select up to 4 and zoom in, lock and move all at ones the same time. so i can see which is where better or worse and deselect the worse one until i keep one. (yes on embedded Jpeg based so not real raw info. and much less possible ways to examin.)
That’s why i thought maybe FRV can be helping but seeing this tutorial it’s great but i fear i got lost in all the settings. or not use it as frequently as i would think, because 80% can be done in DxOPL.
A simple xmp creator with some culling helptools as a pre watch and selectortool would be before opening DXO PL to import/index the new files great. (also great for watching/judging images as like FS IV)
didn’t find that tool so, that bring is t back to feature upgrades in PL:
it start to be interesting to see how it turn out: The new organizor/customade layout.
Maybe they modify it that way that it’s all to do in PL.