Yes, you’re mistaken about that. All processing takes place in the DxO Wide Gamut color space when that is selected as your working color space. When you use Soft Proofing and sRGB is your target for export, you’ll see the image rendered for sRGB (with all processing applied). Here, you can use the out-of-gamut warning indicators for the export destination to see what colors, if any, are being modified to fit into sRGB.
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Hello Greg,
thanks for your reply too.
That’s the point. If I have SP on all the time during editing (for WYSIWYG), then I also only ever see “the image rendered for sRGB (with all processing applied)”.
So from my point of view it would be better (at least for someone who uses a monitor that can display a larger color space than sRGB) to turn SP on only at the end of processing and before exporting. Isn’t it?
I guess if I had a monitor calibrated for Display P3, I’d want to work in that color space first, then make a virtual copy and edit that for sRGB with Soft Proofing on. The only problem I anticipate is, if your monitor is calibrated for P3 will it also display sRGB accurately? I think it might oversaturate the RGB primaries a bit, as this is what my P3 laptop does when displaying sRGB. (Then again, I’ve had nothing but trouble trying to calibrate a wide-gamut display with the Windows desktop in use.)
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I reckon it depends on the target/intention for your exported images;
- I see from your posts above that you understand that the purpose of having SP enabled permanently is to ensure WYS-is-WYG … My following comments are on that basis. I’m also assuming you’re working with the Wide Gamut WCS.
If your intention is to view your images on your P3 monitor;
- I would still use SP - with ICC Profile = P3 … Tho, there will be less likelihood, with P3, of saturated colors not translating well from DxO’s Wide Gamut working color space (which, as Egregius pointed out, is used for PL’s internal processing, regardless of the ICC Profile selected for SP)
If your intention is to share your images with others, and post to the interwebs etc;
- Enabling SP with ICC Profile = sRGB is the way to go … for ensuring that the result you achieve and see within PL is the same as others will see on their (probably/typically) sRGB monitors.
If it’s a bit of both;
- I suggest choosing one of those profiles (sRGB or P3) as your working profile
- Enable SP with ICC Profile = your “working profile” choice
- Use a Virtual Copy to enable SP with the opposite ICC Profile
- Get the result with both versions looking as you want them - and export accordingly (using Export option “Same as Soft Proofing” to ensure you don’t get things mixed up !
Also, note Greg’s “words of caution” (with regard to your P3 monitor);
Observation: It seems that having a better-than-sRGB monitor, when one’s principal export intention is for sharing, posting, submitting to comps, etc - ends up making things more difficult/complicated (?!)
John M
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I’m not aware of any problem with SP, Wolfgang … ??
John
I really appreciate all the work that you and others have put into understanding the wide gamut / soft proofing issues presented by DxO PL6E.
I’d like to respond to one specific thing that you wrote in your last post: “Get the result with both versions looking as you want them - and export accordingly (using Export option “Same as Soft Proofing” to ensure you don’t get things mixed up !”
In the Export to Disk Options interface, if you select Same as Soft Proofing and the ICC Profile is anything other than sRGB IEC61966-2.1, the program will embed the corresponding ICC color profile at export. The sRGB IEC61966-2.1 selection will produce a color tag but will not embed a profile. This may or may not be what is expected or desired depending on one’s workflow and use case. Just one example, a poster in this thread noted that a printing service provided ICC profiles but did not want those profiles embedded in uploaded image files. Oops!
Thank you !
Ahh - That’s a very interesting discovery/observation - - I was not aware of this.
I suggest you post this as a “bug report”, to make DxO aware of the implications.
John M
Images without profile can be assumed to be in sRGB.
Adding an unwanted colour tag sounds wrong though.
Hi John & happy New Year!
Manfred is still on PL5. And you know the PL6 SP ‘problems’ yourself.
When working with different colour spaces, e.g.
- on a monitor wider than sRGB, but needing to export to sRGB …for web or a printing provider
- pictures with highly saturated colours on a sRGB monitor, while outputting in wider gamut
(ink jet printing) …
one has to rely on properly working colour management including SP (and it always has been like this), but of course not everybody is used too.
Happy New Year to you and yours too, Wolfgang.
Ahh - Are you referring to the printer-specific features of Soft Proofing? - - Simulate Paper & Ink, etc
I believe that’s coming in a future version.
John
I think this may be a feature, not a bug. I say this because the color tag vs. color profile embed behavior is the same in the Export to Disk interface when SP is turned off. The one added wrinkle is when you are processing a RAW file where the in-camera JPG setting is aRGB. In this case, the As Shot setting will embed the Adobe RGB (1998) profile. I have been testing exported JPEGs and TIFFs but have not had tested exported DNGs. With DNGs you have only one export option, As Shot.
At least DxO is being internally consistent here (if confusing) in deciding that routine sRGB exports will not have an embedded color profile. The assumption (a good one) is that modern browsers and other programs (by convention) will read the color tags or simply default to the sRGB color space. But I am old school and always embed a color profile to avoid any (most) color management issues. Moreover, the increasing adoption of wide color gamut and “hdr” displays seems to be generating a new round of such issues.
Hello John-M,
thanks for your comments and sorry for my late reply (New Year festivities…).
I haven’t bought PL6 yet and am still working with PL5, as @Wolfgang mentioned. I wanted to get an idea about the new version and get as much information as possible. Especially because of the new WG-WCS.
Yes, I understand why it is recommended to work with SP permanently set - e.g. with the sRGB color space for the web or for sharing with other people who don’t use color management. But this point causes me a problem of understanding for the following reason: If I have SP permanently switched on, then I can’t enjoy the WG-WCS with PL6 at all, because the image to be processed is always displayed to me in a simulated but reduced color space (sRGB)! Am I wrong?
What do you mean by
“I suggest choosing one of those profiles (sRGB or P3) as your working profile”?
The working profile of PL6? As far as I know, that can’t be set. The choice is only between WG-WCS or Legacy.
The working profile of my display? I can’t do that on my MacBook (M1). I have no way to change/restrict/set the MacBook’s color space.
Or the profile for soft proofing?
As @Egregius mentioned:
I have calibrated and profiled my (XDR-) monitor. But not “for” sRGB or AdobeRGB or…, but simply with the appropriate recommended parameters (luminance 120 cd m² , white point D65, gamma curve 2.2 and black luminance min. Native) for a correct color representation.
I do not have the impression that my MacBook displays sRGB images oversaturated. I would notice that by viewing images via browser on the Internet (which are only displayed in sRGB).
Maybe I have a huge error in reasoning on this subject.
That is a tad over the top for if you want to print, or even for sharing with some screens.
Especially for printing I use 80cd/m² and 5600°K on an Apple Cinema Display
Thanks for your thoughts, @Joanna . Yes, I know, recommended brightness for photographic purposes is 80-120 cd m². In prepress, the white point is usually set at 5000-5500K. I print very rarely and when I do, I don’t do it myself. I have the brightness a bit higher because the user interface of PL is way too dark for me (especially the labeling of the inactive tools), very difficult to read and I almost get eye cancer.
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You seem to be overlooking the possibilities offered by soft proofing. If you are soft proofing for sRGB, then it is advantageous to see on your screen what the output will look like when you export for web or for print. You can also soft proof for Display P3 if you want to. Choose how you want to work and use virtual copies if you want to soft proof for two different destination color spaces: one for your monitor’s native capabilities, one for sRGB, one for something else…
You might find that few of your images actually exceed the color gamut of sRGB. Unless, of course, you want to crank up the color saturation of all your photos. But even if all your colors fit into sRGB, the DxO Wide Gamut working color space makes computations and adjustments less prone to unwanted shifts and clipping.
Also:
Display P3 and sRGB have the same D65 white point and 2.2 gamma. But the primary and secondary colors are another matter.
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That step was in the context of ;
Meaning; just make a (personal) choice of which profile you wish to assign for Soft Proofing with your (M)aster version - and assign the opposite for Soft Proofing with your Virtual Copy … It’s an arbitrary choice.
The point of having SP permanently active, with the ICC Profile set for your export intention (in your case, either sRGB or P3), is to ensure that WYS-is-always-WYG.
John M
Thank xou @Egregius and @John-M . I understand the benefits of soft proofing and using virtual copies.
I also understand that through SP WYS-is-always-WYG.
What I do not understand is why I should softproof for display P3 when my display can render P3 color space? I assume that I don’t see anything different with or without softproof. Let me guess: Does it make sense because the working color space in PL6 is “Wide Gamut” (if set that way), which is (possibly?) larger than P3 - and therefore I don’t see exact P3 colors? (Please note that I don’t have PL6 yet, so I can’t practically try it).
While soft-proofing for your own monitor seems unnecessary (and sometimes is unnecessary), it ensures WYSIWYG. If anything happens to be out-of-gamut for P3 (not nearly as likely as with sRGB, but possible), you won’t see everything that PhotoLab does on export to “protect saturated colors” (keep them in gamut) unless you turn soft proofing on.
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