How to process night images with colorful reflections on water

[mikemyers]

@Joanna

Let’s start with a definition of what dynamic range is in terms that are of interest to the average photographer…

Dynamic range is the number of stops between the exposure required to see detail in the deepest shadow and the exposure require to hold detail in the brightest highlights.

To start with, you need to decide on what ISO you want to use - one that is not too slow if you are going to handhold or not too fast that it gives you lots of digital noise.

If the world were a perfect place and everything stood completely still while we took a picture, 100 ISO is absolutely ideal, especially for the kind of landscape shots you seem to favour. But, if necessary, you can increase that speed quite considerably, knowing that PL4’s noise reduction can get rid of that excess noise, even at relatively high ISOs. Unless I am using a tripod, for “wandering around” daytime photography I tend to use 400 ISO.

Apart from generating more noise with higher ISOs, another thing they do is to limit the dynamic range (difference between darkest and lightest parts) that you can record without losing detail.

This chart shows you that, with your camera, you have got as much as 13 stops of range at 100 ISO but, if you were to use 25600 ISO, you would only have 6 stops of range.

Why does this mean?

Well, if you are shooting against the light, you are going to need as much range as you can get, in order to neither block the shadow detail or blow the highlight detail; so you are going to have to keep the ISO as low as possible, given the light available.

However, if you are shooting with the light behind you, or in diffuse light, you could possibly get everything into 6 stops (Fuji Velvia 100 transparency film is only capable of 5 stops and is a firm favourite of large format landscape photographers) so, if necessary, you can raise the ISO and still get everything in.

So, let’s take the kind of shots you have been showing us. The earlier ones were taken against the light but, if you were using a tripod, you could safely use 100 ISO, unless you wanted to avoid subject movement blur. This then allowed you to profit from the maximum dynamic range of your camera and take “HDR” shots in one frame rather than having to bracket and blend two or three pictures afterwards.

Now to discuss what happens when you meter a scene.

All light meters, including those in cameras, try to make the exposure an average 18% grey; not black, not white, not even mid-grey.

When we spot meter this white van

… it comes out a mucky grey.

Now, because we found out that your camera can over-expose by up to 2 stops without losing detail in the highlights, we can tell the camera to deliberately over-expose by those 2 stops

… which then gives us a properly white van with the detail of the panels still visible in the doors.

Which is why we advise you, in the case of high contrast scenes, to spot meter the brightest part and add two stops. On my camera, if I set the exposure compensation dial to +2, the metering will then tell me the right exposure without having to add the 2 stops on afterwards.

Am I going too fast? Let’s take a break there and you can come back with questions if you need to.

I did NOT understand most of this before. I had no idea how dynamic range, which also wasn’t clear to me, would decrease as the ISO number went up. So I immediately think I should be using as low a number for ISO as I feel comfortable with.

Your chart was meaningless to me until just now. Now it makes sense! Definite progress.

It seems to me that I need a better light meter than the one inside the M10, but in the meantime, I can set the meter for “spot”, get a reading for the brightest part of the image, and give it two stops of additional exposure, knowing that the camera is trying to make that a mid-gray, and in your example I want white.

If I go out to take photos today, I’ll set the meter to “spot”, hold the center part of the image over the brightest thing in the photo if there is something that should be white, view the suggested exposure, and give two additional stops. If I still get to do this today, I’ll see how it works for me.

[mikemyers]

@Joanna

All I can say is to set your camera to spot mode and see how much movement from a small area of light it takes to change the reading. You may be surprised at how well it does. Unfortunately, for the kind of measuring required for ETTR, you really need a spot meter and, if you are not willing to settle for what is in your camera, it could well cost you around $500 to get a decent one, even secondhand.

When/if I go to buy one, which one(s) do you think are best?

[mikemyers]

@Joanna

Try not to get into too many technical side tracks

This entire discussion is a “technical side track”, but the way you explain things, they suddenly seem to be “obvious”. That is good - once they seem to be obvious, I can use them without trying to understand them.

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

@mikemyers

When/if I go to buy one, which one(s) do you think are best?

They don’t still make the one I use and the only one I found for sale was over €500 secondhand.

Seriously Mike, try out the spot mode on your camera before even considering spending the much on some expensive “jewellery”. Let’s put it this way, for most of my everyday photography, I never even get mine out of the bag.

Also, don’t forget, all this ETTR, spot, HDR stuff is really only useful for contre-jour or high dynamic range shots.

So, repeat after me - “I will follow Joanna’s advice and see how good my camera’s spot mode is” then sit back and think of how much money you’ve just saved

[mwsilvers (Mark - New Jersey, USA)]

@mikemyers

My definition of “purist” has changed, but forgetting that, to do things properly I need a good light meter.

I hope I was not the cause of that. I was not trying to make you see things differently, but merely presenting to you other possibilities and suggesting that you experiment.

Mark

[mikemyers]

@Joanna

I will follow Joanna’s advice and see how good my camera’s spot mode is” then sit back and think of how much money you’ve just saved

I will follow Joanna’s advice and see how good my camera’s spot mode is” then sit back and think of how much money I’ve just saved.

(I do have a Sekonic Studio Deluxe III L-398A that I bought five years ago.)

Sekonic L-398A Studio Deluxe III Light Meter

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

@mikemyers

(I do have a Sekonic Studio Deluxe III L-398A that I bought five years ago.)

Reminds me of a Weston Master. Unfortunately, it’s never going to give you a spot reading

[mikemyers]

@Joanna

It’s certainly not all you can do. You can get used to spot metering and that, combined with a knowledge of what your camera is capable of, will give you the perfect (yes, I said perfect) shot every time.

For as long as I’ve thought about these things, I never expected I could capture “the perfect shot” every time. To me, it’s almost always the best compromise that I’m capable of achieving.

When the dynamic range of what I’m looking at is more than what the camera is capable of, my choices are to “compromise”, getting the most important parts of what I’m shooting, or to bracket (maybe for HDR), or if my camera can do it (my Fuji X100 can) adjust the dynamic range.

What you are teaching me will allow me to get either a perfect shot, or the best achievable compromise.

I’m not sure my Leica M10 is the best camera to use for what I’ve been shooting lately, I suspect my Nikon Df or D750 might have an edge. Everything we’re doing coincides with my attempt to learn the M10 as best I can. If I get to where I think I’ve mastered it, then I can try with one of the Nikons.

It may or may not be obvious to anyone else, but it’s quite obvious to me - I’m learning a lot from what all of you have been doing, and explaining. I’m also learning new tools.

[OXiDant (Peter)]

it’s technical sensor electronics and onboard sensor data to rawfile conversion which defines Dynamic Range.
you need to understand what ISO exactly is before you can understand the DR graphic’s.

So keep it simple.
Max DR is at base iso and smallest DR is in the highend of your ISO selection.

Most skynight stars shooters with m43 sensor uses iso3200 because a base iso causes shootnoise, sensor heatingnoise and motionblur due earth movement. They lower DR in order to gain on other problems.
a FF is about 2 stops briughter so iso800 would be alright.

looking at your camera m10 has 8.5 stops DR at iso800. which is enough.
So as @Joanna wrote use spotmeatering at a bright light/building (i like some blown/“starring” on a light so fully pulled inside the DR isn’t necessary.) and use Exposure compensation and liveview (mirrorless?) to home in to the max ETTR. (2 stops?)

After you are found the right way maybe you have some extra camera tools to help you be lazy in some occations.

i have a neat tool in my camera Panasonic G80, called Idyn. originally ment for the ooc-jpegs,
it’s a automated system which activates in high dynamic contrasty scenes.
then it lowers tone curvecontrast incamera (only ooc-jpeg) and in exposure compensation -1/3 -2/3 -1 from original Exposure meatering. (which means it prevents blown “whites”)
in daylight a great system.
So what i do is spotmeater on my mainsubject (not a bright light) and let idyn adjust in three steps if my whites are blown to much. lazy i know.

[OXiDant (Peter)]

@mikemyers

if my camera can do it (my Fuji X100 can) adjust the dynamic range.

Every camera can “adjust Dynamic Range” by adjusting ISO value.
or if you talk about out of camera jpegs.
it’s like my idyn.
which does two things:

Stark contrast: how your camera copes with dynamic range capture

lowering contrast and EV compensation

[mikemyers]

@Joanna

Seriously Mike, try out the spot mode on your camera before even considering spending the much on some expensive “jewellery”. Let’s put it this way, for most of my everyday photography, I never even get mine out of the bag.

I went out on my balcony, and selected “spot metering mode”. I aimed the middle of my screen at a mostly white boat, set the ISO to 100, the lens aperture to f/5.6, and selected (A) for the shutter speed, meaning Aperture Priority. That indicated that 1/60th as the speed the camera wanted to use. So I manually set the shutter speed to 1/60, took the first photo, and then took at second photo at 1/15, for the two-stops over-exposure.

Uh oh, then I read this: " Be aware that you can only select this metering mode (or spot metering ) when in Live View, (using either the rear LCD or the Visoflex viewfinder) since these modes rely on the sensor for exposure information, while the standard center weighted metering uses the shutter curtain."

I took another two photos, same procedure as before. The “correct exposure” shot was set to 1/90th of a second. To give two stops of additional exposure I should have used 1/23 second or so, but my choices were 1/15 or 1/30. I used 1/30. Now that I’m reviewing what I did, I ought to have opened up my lens by two stops and left the shutter speed unchanged.

Here are the two images:

L1001750 | 2020-12-06 | Dynamic Range Test 1.dng (29.1 MB)

L1001751 | 2020-12-06 | Dynamic Range Test 1.dng (31.5 MB)

According to the viewing screen on my camera, the highlights in the over-exposed image are already burnt out.

Theoretically, the “correctly” exposed photo should look like a gray boat, and the over-exposed photo should look like a white boat.

[mikemyers]

Before I get too deep in this, I just performed Joanna’s suggested test. Maybe I’m confused, but I expected to get a gray boat in the first photo, and a white boat in the second. Instead I got a white boat in the first picture, and a blown-out white boat in the second. It’s as if the spot metering knew it was supposed to show “white”.

Maybe I will repeat the test using spot metering on a white wall, and see how that shows up, gray, or white.

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

Did you set the exposure compensation to +2 before measuring or add 2 stops after?.

If the second, what wrre the speed and aperture before and after adding the 2 stops?

[mikemyers]

The first photo was f/5.6 at 1/90th.

I then tried to re-adjust the shutter to get two stops more exposure, so I used 1/30th for the reasons explained above. I will repeat and open the lens by two f/stops, which will properly achieve what you want me to do - tomorrow, when the sun returns.

[mikemyers]

The only way I know how to use the meter “manually” in the M10 is to select an ISO, select an aperture, and select (A) on the shutter speed dial, to view the recommended shutter speed the camera is going to use. I can either click the shutter, or select that suggested shutter speed manually and then click the shutter release, which I did.

The boat ought to have shown up as gray, not white, if I understand you correctly. But it was captured as white. …I’ve never used the meter this way before. I’ll read up on it tonight and see if I’m missing something.

[OXiDant (Peter)]

your manual says:
Exposure compensationExposure meters are calibrated to an average gray scale value (18% reflection), which corresponds to the brightness of a normal, i.e. average photographic subject. If the actual subject detail does not match this assumption, an appropriate exposure compensation can be performed.Particularly when taking several pictures in succession, for in-stance if for any reason a series of pictures is taken deliberately using slight under or overexposure, exposure compensation is a very useful function: In contrast to metering memory lock, once set it remains effective until it is reset.Exposure compensation can be set in the range ±3EV in 1⁄3 EV stepsEntering and canceling an exposure compensationA. With focus button and thumbwheel1. Hold the Focus button 3 pressed down, and2. use the thumbwheel 28 to select the desired value.
see page 170

in this you need to do a plus 2 Exposure Compensation

[mikemyers]

This may all be correct, but I was just testing if what Joanna suggested would work for me. With my Leica M10 set to spot metering, and using Live View, I placed the metering area right on top of the white boat. With the selected reading, I was expecting to capture an image that looked like a gray boat.

Never used spot metering on the M10 before, and I’ve rarely used the “Live View” either. I’ve been trying to learn how to use the camera as I did growing up with my old Leica film cameras.

By the way, I don’t think that manual has anything to do with my camera - it refers to a focus button. The rangefinder Leica cameras don’t have such a thing - it’s all manual focus. Just the same, I think I understand what you posted.

At this point in time, I’m not trying to capture a perfect picture. I’m just learning. Slowly most of the things I’ve read in this forum lately are starting to make sense. That’s progress.

Just for the record, maybe I’ll change, but I don’t really want to think in terms of a “plus 2 exposure compensation”. My brain will be happier if I set the exposure to a normal exposure, and then adjust the shutter or aperture manually to get two stops change in exposure. (When I set something to “+2”, there’s a good chance that tomorrow I won’t remember having done so, and I’ll wonder why my exposures are off…)

[Calle (Christian)]

@mikemyers

Instead I got a white boat in the first picture, and a blown-out white boat in the second. It’s as if the spot metering knew it was supposed to show “white”.

The whites aren’t blown out in the second image. Sorry, no FRV or DxO right now, but Affinity Photo:

The cameras tend to exaggerate the clipping indicator to error on the safe side. The default JPEG rendering doesn’t make use of the full dynamic range but is a compromise.

@mikemyers

I placed the metering area right on top of the white boat. With the selected reading, I was expecting to capture an image that looked like a gray boat.

Did this area of the boat really fill the circle on the screen where the metering is supposed to happen? Also the boat is not uniformly bright in this area. The spot meter is not looking at the brightest part in the circle but at the average in the circle. If I do a Gaussian blur on your picture to visualize the average I see this part as gray, not white.

You can do some experiments with dark and light objects next to each other to see how well defined the spot meter circle is.

Edit:

@mikemyers

I don’t think that manual has anything to do with my camera - it refers to a focus button. The rangefinder Leica cameras don’t have such a thing - it’s all manual focus.

You don’t have that focus button at all on your M10? According to the manual it can be used to activate focus aid functions like enlarging or peaking, but also for exposure compensation and bulb exposure.

[George]

In one picture you used manual and in the other aperture priority. In the m-picture the s1/30 and f3.36 was used. In the a-picture s1/90 and f2.0.

George

[OXiDant (Peter)]

@mikemyers

Never used spot metering on the M10 before, and I’ve rarely used the “Live View” either. I’ve been trying to learn how to use the camera as I did growing up with my old Leica film cameras.

I bought the Panasonic G80 specially for his dedicated button layout.
Easy acces on manual and different meatering functions. It is not a big camera and the m43sensor can be struggling sometime but all and all it’s a fine combination of being compact and having dslr shape and functionlayout.
It has all kind of functions to play with.

@mikemyers

When I set something to “+2”, there’s a good chance that tomorrow I won’t remember having done so, and I’ll wonder why my exposures are off…)

Yep that’s one of the potholes.
I used zebra’s for one week to utilise ETTR and then i realized that the zebra’s,sign of overexposure, where calibrated on oocjpegs so all my rawfiles where underexposed.
you learn every day.