Can PhotoLab process infrared images with channel swapping?

mikemyers · November 14, 2021, 12:12pm

Technically, I did know, as it is one of the films I found while searching. I never heard of it before, and had no idea what was special about it. Interesting image. I think one of today’s experiments will be to put my new IR filter, attached to my 50mm Summicron, on my M10 and see it it is useable. I do enjoy using my M8.2 camera, but I fully accept how much better my M10 is. I guess I should also consider testing the D750, to see if it is as bad a choice for infrared photography as I read all Nikon DSLR cameras were in an article I read long ago.

Are there data sheets or books I can use to compare the effects of all these films? I also wonder how many of these films are still available as 35mm film…

I agree with you completely. My “reality” can be seen in the images I post here, and they in turn depend on not only my equipment, but how I go about using it, “rightly” or “wrongly”. There is no question but that my “technique” has been greatly influenced by feedback from all of you, sometimes to correct “errors”, and sometimes to achieve a “better” end result. All this time though, it’s me “pushing” to get the end result I perceive in my mind. In other words, I think what you wrote is “obvious” once one considers all of this. But it is very important that none of this is “set in stone”. What I thought I “wanted” yesterday is not what I “expect” today, and who knows what I might “expect/want” tomorrow.

The “answer” is what I will think about my images the next day, and the changes I might decide I need on my own, combined with comments from other people’s thoughts, which mostly are things I hadn’t yet thought of, or didn’t know how to achieve.

That’s what I meant by “I constantly tell myself that none of this stuff matters, good photos come from ME, not from my equipment.”, but the “ME” is evolving over time mostly from feedback, which is only from “YOU”. (Nobody else gives feedback, they just say how nice something is, which is satisfying but not helpful for improving myself and my technique.)

Actually, the four things I do that take up most of my time are computers, photography, bullseye shooting, and cooking. I don’t understand how I ever found time to “work” before I retired!!

platypus · November 14, 2021, 3:14pm

… just another layer…

mikemyers · November 14, 2021, 5:02pm

Will re-post later.

Joanna · November 14, 2021, 5:13pm

Who dat dere?

mikemyers · November 14, 2021, 5:23pm

I thought I found out something interesting, but I was wrong. I took sets of photos with the M8.2 and M10, with no filter, and then with my new B&W filter. With and without the filter, the exposures were close, but the M10 does a very good job of blocking IR light.

Here is the best exposure from the M10, and I can’t adjust the white balance any more. I guess it’s just beyond the capability of PL5. I wanted to do the same thing with the M8.2 images, but I need to convert them to TIFF, and even so, I doubt I’ll be able to correct the horrible red cast. I need to fix the cast, before I do anything about processing as an IR photo.

What I know I can do, is take my regular photos with no filter, and use the IR corrections you have showed me. I may still do that this afternoon or evening…

L1003541 | 2021-11-14.dng (26.2 MB)

L1003541 | 2021-11-14.dng.dop (12.1 KB)

I’ve also noticed the it’s hard for me to tell which image came from which camera. I will try to re-set the numbering software on the M8.2 to start at 0000001 again.

Joanna · November 14, 2021, 6:12pm

OK. Here we go.

B&W…

False Colour…

DOP…

L1003541 | 2021-11-14.dng.dop (42,3 Ko)

mikemyers · November 14, 2021, 6:50pm

Well, I took an image from the M8.2 and did all the processing in Photoshop. These are the results, both a ‘tiff’ and a ‘jpg’.

L1031137 | 2021-11-14.tif (25.0 MB)

I’m sure I can do better than the end result in Photoshop, if I use what I’ve learned about PL5, starting with the ‘tiff’ image:

L1031137 | 2021-11-14.tif (25.0 MB)

L1031137 | 2021-11-14.tif.dop (13.5 KB)

I’m leaving it is for now, but if I understood the color tool better, I think I could make things really stand out! You could do it in seconds - for me, it will be another few hours, but I need to learn it anyway.

Is it “real”? No way. But since none of us can see in infrared light, nothing I do with IR will ever be “real”.

Your thoughts?

Wolfgang · November 14, 2021, 7:08pm

colour madness – horrible and waste of time

mikemyers · November 14, 2021, 7:32pm

That the leaves and shrubs turn very light colored is logical: " The most obvious change is that leaves appear bright white, almost glowing . Leaves absorb almost all wavelengths of visible light except for green, which they reflect. … The amount of infrared light reflected by a leaf. In visible light, leaves are dark (reflecting only a bit of green)."

This is not the reason I’m doing the IR photography, but it can be useful to others:
https://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/infrared-photography-a-forgotten-tool-for-investigators.html

I first got interested in infrared film when I was a kid, reading about it in magazines, and viewing photos like these:
https://photographylife.com/introduction-to-infrared-photography
So, I started buying Kodak Infrared Ektachrome Film, and got more interested, but couldn’t afford all the film I needed back then.

Is it “horrible and a waste of time”? If I ever get good at it, I don’t think it’s “horrible”, although I don’t yet know enough to make good use of it. As to whether or not it’s a “waste of time”, I can’t answer that - to me, it’s a challenge, just like sunrise and sunset photos, and all of it teaches me new things, constantly. Thanks to my being so stubborn, I gave up on Affinity Photo, and re-learned the basics of Photoshop. I still greatly prefer PhotoLab to Photoshop, but Photoshop can do things PhotoLab can’t.

A lot of stuff I do is probably wasting time. Why am I bothering with film, when all of you have proven to me that I can do the same things, better, with digital? Why am I bothering with my 15-year old Leica M8.2 when I can use my much more powerful M10 or D750? And why am I using any of them, when for $2500 or so I can buy a shiny sort-of-like-new D850 from KEH? And why don’t I have my name on the waiting list for a Nikon Z9 ? My answer - it may well be a “waste of time”, but it’s enjoyable to me.

I think I know what you’re trying to say, and if I need to take an important photo of something, all this “fun” stuff will be put away, and my best camera (D750) will come out. I think I understand the “reality”, but I’m too stubborn to stop working at something until I accomplish what I was after, or realize it’s “a waste of time”.

(My most recent waste of time and $$$ is that I will have a fully restored Leica M3 being shipped back to me next week from DAG Camera Repair, where the camera magician, Don, restores old gear to like-new condition. I can’t give you, or anyone, a logical reason why I’m doing this, but as expensive as it is, it is nothing like the $6000 or so to buy a new film Leica M-A, and in several ways, the M3 is preferable to the M-A anyway… Read Ken Rockwell’s review of the M3:
https://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/m3.htm
“World’s Greatest 35mm Camera”
)

Joanna · November 15, 2021, 2:32pm

My feeling is that, in retirement, a lot less things are a waste of time but, more, a use of time. We are now in the position that we can, for the most part, do what we want when we want. We no longer have any pressure to do something for someone else in order to make a living.

A couple of times a year I subject myself to the “pressure” of printing our club photo’s exhibition. Most members don’t have post-processing software, so doing the preparation of images takes up some time but, using PL, it isn’t really hard work. The worst bit is cutting out the bevelled mount boards to surround the prints in their frames - having to bend over the mount cutter and apply pressure does wonders for the back.

I refuse to get on the Adobe rental scheme so my side project is to get to know Affinity Photo better.

We could also ask why we continue to bother with LF and MF film. The simple answer is, when you’ve learnt the necessary skills and know what you’re doing, it can be easier than messing around with computerised gizmos and, being able to print up to 5ft x 4ft without loss of detail, or even take a smaller print from just a section of the image, is just so rewarding. I sit in a room with two 30" x 24" B&W prints on the walls and, every time I look at them, it makes me smile and reminds me of the time and effort it took to get them right in the camera with the only electronics being a spot meter.

Old photo gear is an intensely personal and emotional field that, unfortunately, most younger people will never understand; although there is a revival in analogue photography.

Personally I have absolutely no desire to ever go back to 35mm film - it’s just too small, fiddly and difficult to make larger prints out of. Why bother when I have two Mamiya 6cm x 7cm cameras with glass you could cut your eyes on and the possibility of making much bigger prints or cropping them.
Take a look at the bottom 9 images on this page of my website - all taken with the divine Mamiya 7 II.

I think the two I like the most are:

Spot metering is the only option so, if I remember rightly, I metered for the dark area at the end of the pavement(sidewalk) and lo and behold perfect exposure with no blocks or blows (using Ilford Delta 400 film)

This was a fun exercise in getting the framing in the “window” of the shelter right despite the parallax of the rangefinder. I had to move from side to side, working out how far off centre I had to compose it before committing to what you see here.

Of course, with the 45Mpx D850, I’m approaching the same kind of resolution - all I need now is a small fortune to buy some more decent glass. Although the discipline of going out with only one prime lens can have a serious (good) effect on what you decide to shoot or not.

Well, at least it’s going to be in great condition for when you need to sell it to fund the latest Nikon XYZ9999 Gigapixel camera

mikemyers · November 15, 2021, 3:49pm

I thoroughly agree with that, but after several days, and lots of videos, I couldn’t get Affinity to even correct the color cast, let alone the channel switching. Yes, I’m still paying my monthly rental check to Adobe, but the day they raise their prices will be the end of it. I tried to remove the color cast in PL5, but couldn’t do so - but PL5 would still be great for B&W images. I don’t have a good answer, and a lot of other things are much more important to me than infrared shooting. Like I said, I’m just too stubborn to give anything up until I learn how to do it. Wolfgang is probably right about this, bizarre colored images are not what I want to be spending/wasting too much time on. I’m just being stubborn.

Since I don’t have a LF or MF camera, this isn’t an issue to me, but yes, I see a LF camera for sale at KEH and yes, I do get tempted…
https://www.keh.com/shop/large-format-4x5-shen-hao-hzx45-iia-black-walnut-with-black-fittings-679740.html?aid=254603-595093&utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=Shen%20Hao&utm_term=254603-595093&gclid=CjwKCAiAp8iMBhAqEiwAJb94z92EC1KMKiUzXtDOp44zeBbmzXTeVf9RSBZY_MYHDVj0DnQG0NixBRoC-5gQAvD_BwE
I get tempted, but then I need a lens and the rest of the kit, and I need to re-learn it to get back to where I was in the 1970’s. I know the theory - but back then, I also had the developing tanks and a Simon Omega enlarger that could print 4,5…

You need a crystal ball before you spend all that money. With Nikon switching to the new, supposedly better, format, in two or three years Nikon’s current lenses may cost as much as Leica screw mount lenses, because everyone will have switched. If I were buying a new Nikon today, it most likely would be one of their cameras with the new mount, some of which are quite affordable. The safest thing for me to do, is not buy any new cameras. I want the resolution and dynamic range and that sort of thing, but I don’t need or want to take hundreds of photos per second, even if I could. I guess I would be most tempted by a Z camera that does what your D850 does, but I don’t dare to even start looking…

The point of the M3 is to shoot film. I don’t think the XYZ999 will support that.

All the cameras and tools and lenses and meters and everything else would be useless without your imagination, composing skills, exposing skills, and all the rest - your ability to capture what you see in a beautiful image. All those other things matter, but it’s impossible to “buy” your ability.

(Which doesn’t mean I try to do what you do, even if I can’t do it as well.)

That Nikon XYZ9999 might capture a technically superb and perfect image, but without your imagination, all that other stuff is as useless as if you put me in a race car and asked me to drive around the race track as well as the top competitors do. Ain’t gonna happen!!!

(But looking at your photos, and others here in the forum, certainly get me to want to do the same, even though it probably won’t be as good. It’s a learning experience, at least for me.)

Added later - two links to consider:
https://photographylife.com/nikon-z-6-vs-nikon-d750

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D750-versus-Nikon-Z6___975_1269

Joanna · November 15, 2021, 5:19pm

In a word - Nooooo !!! Shen hao are 'orrible - flimsy, poorly thrown together, cheap and worth every penny

Yup. We haven’t got the room for a “proper” darkroom, so we use a Combiplan tank that can take up to 6 negs and, once it’s loaded in a dark room, it can all be done in daylight. As for wet printing - I’m sorry to all the purists out there but scanning (or even photographing) 5" x 4" negs is a breeze and then you can sit in front of you screen and edit without any of those nasty smelly chemicals, copious wasted paper for test strips and printing plans, etc.

I’ll sell you my old D810 if you want?

Yes, but it only shoots 35mm. The sheer gobsmacking difference between that and 6cm x 7cm film has to be seen to be believed. And the Mamiya 7 II gives me possibly the same goosebumps that you seem to get from your Leicas.

But it is possible to take inspiration from what you see of other photographers’ work and knuckle down to learning how to make the most of your surroundings, trips out, etc and drag up all that technical knowhow from “the olden days”, applying it to these new-fangled digital thingumabobs.

At the moment, I’m looking at setting up a small Still Life studio (table with backdrop), obtaining some “props” and trying to emulate someone like Christopher Broadbent. Oops! I’m starting to drool again just looking at his photos.

Well, here’s a starter from last week’s club workshop…

See - it doesn’t have to be complicated. And if you don’t have studio lights, use the light from your window on one side and a white reflector on the other.

mikemyers · November 15, 2021, 6:58pm

Curious - if Ken can do this with an M3, why do I want or need anything better?
https://www.kenrockwell.com/trips/2014-05-yosemite/16/70050007-1200.jpg

I’m almost serious - the largest I expect to print, if ever, is 16x20. When I look at this image, I compare it in my mind to Ansel Adams’ prints, which I don’t think exceeded 16x20 (but I my be very wrong here).

To be honest, my images don’t need to be larger than a 27" or so high definition monitor display.

If I was still doing sports photography, which I’m not, I would be on the waiting list for the Z9.

A few months ago, I bought five rolls of Neon Across 100 II film.
https://www.fujifilm.com/us/en/business/professional-photography/film/neopan-100-acros-ii
I want to try it in my M3 with the new Voigtlander lens.

Interesting. I have no idea how you did this so well. I think I would measure how far the viewfinder was from the lens, in both X and Y axis, and move the tripod accordingly. How did you get it so perfect??

Beautifully worded. The only “pressure” I am under comes from inside of “me”. My calendar is quite empty. My other hobbies do intrude on my time, but years ago, I don’t know how I ever found the time to “work”. Of course, on the flip side, back then I could afford to spend a lot more!!

mikemyers · November 18, 2021, 12:37am

I just re-read much of this thread, and here’s what I think I now understand:

1 - I need to decide at the beginning if I want to shoot color or B&W. (or both)

If I want B&W, I should use a camera that doesn’t block IR as the Fuji and my M10 does, but lets the infrared light reach the sensor, as my M8.2 does. (Better yet, buy a camera that has been converted specifically for IR use, which ain’t a-gonna happen.)

If I want color, I can pick any of the KolariVision filters shown in that comparison I posted, and create the results they have shown. If I just want the “false colors”, I can swap the red and blue channels. If I want white trees and bushes, it helps to also swap the green channel. For what I’ve been trying to do, it’s the processing that was holding my back, and now I know that Photoshop does what I need - remove the red cast first, and after that is done, swap the channels (two or three channels).

2 - I need to decide if I’m going to actually shoot with IR light, or use regular light and simulate the effects of infrared. Film Pack seems to have many choices to capture an image, and get it to look like it was captured on infrared film. (I have no desire to do this - for my photos, I want to shoot in real infrared, accepting all the limitations, and all the extra work.

This is what I will be trying next, to set a white balance for each camera I might use, for infrared color photos:
https://kolarivision.com/post-infrared-photo-editing/custom-dng-tutorial-setting-white-balance-infrared-photography/

Another link - I was going to do this one first:
https://kolarivision.com/post-infrared-photo-editing/infrared-lab-color-space-tutorial/

jknights · November 18, 2021, 3:52pm

Hi Mike,
I agree with many of your comments about IR photography and Joanna identifies very clearly the difference in philosophies between the ‘not-so-idle but retired’ and the ‘employed and driven to distraction’ people who need to work for a living.

Back to photography in the IR.
Regarding simulation of IR versus the real IR photos there is a difference as I have tested these softwares and also use Photoshop CS6 version for my channel swapping. I have a Serif Affinit Photo license but I dont like it as it is close enough to be Photoshop but is also confusing.
I recently purchased a Kolari IRChrome filter so I could make Kodak Ekachrome IR or Aerochrome like digital images using my Fujifilm XE1 (Full Spectrum converted). This does the job but unfortunately DXO PL5 does not support RAW file conversion of XE1 files.
So my decision point is do I purchase an XE2 and get that full spectrum converted or do I wait for DXO to add in the support for XE1 RAW files. I think both solutions are somewhat costly about £600 for a converted XT1 or XE2 versus an unknown time wait.

In the mean time my DXO PL5 trial has expired and so I need to think about next steps and the likely costs.
I enjoyed the use of PL5 and need to think hard on steps forward.

mikemyers · November 18, 2021, 4:57pm

I’ve tried too many image editors, starting back when I first got a digital camera. For two reasons, PL5 is now a “no-brainer” for me, as it helps ME get the best out of my images. Most of the functions are available in most editors, and back when I could buy it, Lightroom was my favorite - although now that I have to rent it, the open source program DarkTable would have become my main editor, had I not stumbled upon PhotoLab3.

Two things influenced me the most - first, that PL3 was horribly complicated, but Joanna and others helped me understand how to USE PhotoLab, which is not at all like how I use other editors. The second was that reading her discussions on HOW to use the tools, along with much stronger discussions on how NOT to use them, my brain now “thinks” PhotoLab - although I’m still rough on some of the tools.

I had a situation similar to yours, where PhotoLab will not accept raw photos from my Leica M8.2 camera. This was incredibly frustrating, until I learned how to convert the Leica ‘dng’ images into TIFF. I still don’t get access to some of the really important tools such as DeepPRIME, but if I was careful, I could still get high quality images.

My suggestion - the sooner you switch from all the rest to PhotoLab, the better, and at some point in time DxO will support new cameras you buy, especially now that PhotoLab works with the Fuji X-trans-sensor. Still, I guess your XE1 and my Leica M8.2 are in the same boat, and DxO is perhaps never going to go back to old cameras to add support, when so many new mirrorless cameras are being released and DxO needs to add support for them. The next camera I buy, likely next year or the year after, will be some version of a Nikon Z.

OK, back to the present. The more you post here about how to process infrared images, the better. I’m currently “hanging on by a thread”. KolariVision has been a huge help. The only two things I need to do that PhotoLab doesn’t (yet) do are correcting the red cast from red IR filters, and channel swapping for two or three channels - but I can do that outside of PL5, and once the image is processed, import it into PL5. I haven’t tried this yet for IR, but I can open an image in PL5, export it to Topaz Sharpen AI, and it will be returned to PL5 after I’ve corrected it.

As I’m writing this, I suspect I could get my Leica M8.2 images, converted to TIFF, load them into PL5, and Export them to Photoshop…and after removing the red cast and switching the channels, they might be returned to PL5 for me to continue to process them. I’ll try this the next time it’s bright and sunny outside, unlike the dreary weather Miami has today…

jknights · November 18, 2021, 7:06pm

Hi Mike,
Thanks for you helpful response as it would seem that the PL5 Premium pack purchase is definitely the answer to my purchase options.
One of the things I really like is the inclusion of all the old NikSoftware add-ins as I have had these through their various iterations and moves between companies.

Mirrorless is the way to go if you are doing IR as you get away from all the issues around mis-focusing due to small changes in spectrum characteristics.
Regarding the XE1 camera I can round trip it via other software that currently supports it but in reality I should get one of my older Fuji cameras XT1 or XT2 converted to full spectrum as these will be supported in PL5.

Regarding IR I would suggest that as you live in Miami that even though the weather may seem dreary it is still worthwhile taking IR photos. I take photos all years round in the IR spectrum as I discovered when experimenting that people saying sunshine was necessary for IR were either peddling rubbish (I guess they were using cameras with low IR sensitivity with dark red filters) or didnt really know about IR photography with digital cameras. Film was a different game and I count myself lucky to have only see IR and used one roll of Ektachrome IR as a student in the 1970s I could barely afford to get it processed!
I dont know how your Leica will work as I am a novice with them but I keep thinking that I would like an M10-R but then the lenses cost a lot as well. Lottery win required.

Thanks for your help with IR in PL5.

mikemyers · November 18, 2021, 8:06pm

I downloaded the free version of Nik Collection, from when it was given away by Google as I recall. DxO now distributes it, and has added to it. So now I have the free Google release, and the one that I bought - but I rarely use Nik nowadays, as I prefer to keep working with the raw image.

The Leica M8 series cameras left out the anti-IR filter, so apparently they work just great with IR. On the other hand, my M10 seems to block most of the IR. Just a thought - instead of buying a converted camera, or having the work done, consider just buying a used M8 or M8.2.

Mirrorless - one of these years I’m sure I’ll buy one, probably the Z 6 II. It’s affordable, and does what I want, and I’m not sure I want to start taking 50 meg images - no need.

Hmm, I never even considered this - sure, I’ll try this out. I suspected that the haze and fog might block the IR light, but it’s worth trying - and if it works for you, it ought to work for me.

My gut feeling is the plain M10 has everything that’s needed, but Joanna and others have shown me how my Nikon D750 sensor is capable of more than my M10 sensor. The new Z series camera has much more dynamic range. As to lenses, while Leica lenses cost a fortune, the Voigtlander lenses are a small fraction of the price, and some seem pretty close to being equal to Leica image quality. I just bought a “China-Cron” 35mm F/2 lens for $288 - it’s for carry-around on my old M2 and M3 film Leicas. I will find out how good or bad it is - can return it if I’m not pleased. But since we’re discussing infrared here, the M10 seems to do a very good job of blocking it. Again, you might enjoy buying one of the M8 series Leicas, but to take “normal” photos, they recommend an anti-ir filter for the lens.

I’m just passing on what I’ve learned from @Joanna , @platypus , and so many others here. I’m constantly learning from them, and hope to be learning a lot more from you regarding IR processing.

jknights · November 18, 2021, 8:38pm

Thanks.
I am of the opinion that I can sift the wheat from the chaff pretty well as that is why I got my PhD.

Enjoying this forum and the information contained here.

jknights · November 18, 2021, 8:57pm

I have just sourced a Fuji XT1 IR Full Spectrum converted camera so that moves me forward.

Everything is looking good so far.
I have found the PL5 and FilmPack6 user manuals on the DXO website so I have some reading to do!