Soft Proofing

Beginning to think the Mac is a complete mystery to me too, John :slight_smile: Hopefully someone can clear the fog for me

From a review

We measured 100% coverage of sRGB and DCI-P3 color gamuts, and 89% Adobe RGB color gamut

George

Thanks George, but have no idea how that helps me. See, said I was thick as a brick on this subject!

Colin

I just got confused by how many gamuts you can set on your Mac. And I’m still. :confused:
In short, everything you see is in the icc profile of your monitor. Soft proofing is adding info what colors of the input color gamut are outside the output color gamut. And I still believe this is meant with a relative rendering intent, or in any case a non perceptual rendering intent. The picture you see is still ‘normal’.
See https://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/Rendering_Intent. Normally for photos the perceptual is used.

George

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@colin_g

this is how it looks in the windows version

the first pic (M) is shown with my camera profile + DxO Standad preset
the second highlighted pic (1) is the virtual copy with soft proof ON *)

*) this is the right profile to choose for the soft proof (simulation)

grafik

before you export for social media / internet
with the very same sRGB IEC61996-2.1 profile


This way you can preview, how your pic will look like on another monitor.


I chose to introduce a virtual copy, so that any corrections especially made for a certain export don’t affect your original. – Of course you can softproof with the original (M) without choosing a VC.

If that all is to much fuss for you (at the moment), choose DxO’s Classic-Legacy mode …
grafik

Thanks for that Wolfgang. I was more concerned really about how my monitor should be set up as it supports several profiles.

Hi Colin,
yes I got that from your post #9.

Communicating via social media / internet is usually done with the sRGB profile. sRGB is the most common one, lot of people use a sRGB capable monitor and some software pieces don’t handle pics in a wider gamut space properly.

[ While you can export wide gamut pics with out-of-gamut colours e.g. to ProPhotoRGB, your DCI-P3 capable monitor limits you to see & control – and softproofing is useless. ]


Now, if to check wether your pic exceeds your monitor’s colour space, click the Monitor gamut warning
(on the left side of the user interface), which puts a blue overlay on the area containing such out-of gamut colours ( → different hotkeys for Mac ).


shown here on a sRGB monitor for demonstration purposes

( the virtual copy with softproof ON is highlighted – or use the master file M )
.
.
If to check wether your wide gamut pic will be affected by exporting to sRGB IEC61996-2.1, click the Destination gamut warning, which puts a red overlay on the area containing such out-of-gamut colours.


with the softproof version highlighted and the Monitor gamut warning still ON,
you can toggle between the restrictions from your monitor and with your export


note

Softproof is nothing else than a simulation. It shows you onscreen what to expect with export, but doesn’t affect your pic.

When you use a virtual copy for softproofing, then you can adjust this proof version to taste and export from there (e.g. with the sRGB IEC… profile) – without changing your master file

– which is the sole reason, why DxO recommends to softproof with a VC.

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Hi George,

You may recall an exchange between @Lucabeer and a DxO staff member during the beta testing stage; where the staff member explained that there was no difference, when Exporting-to-disk, whether Perceptual or Relative Intent is selected … which is demonstrably true, in practice.

I reckon the “Intent” setting must belong to the (not yet available) “Simulate paper & ink” option.

John M

Yes, the explanation was rather convincing. From what I understood, it works this way:

  • imagine that you are exporting to disk to sRGB (like many do)
  • colors that easily fit into sRGB (central parts of the gamut) are left untouched
  • colors that are near the borders of the sRGB gamut are only slightly shifted
  • colors that are outside of the sRGB gamut are shifted to the borders of the sRGB gamut so they fit

The amount of shifting to fit follows a non-linear rule so that hard posterization/blocky areas of uniform color are avoided. There’s some sort of “knee” to avoid simply truncating colors outside of the gamut.

Perceptual would shift ALL colors. Colorimetric relative would do a hard truncation of the colors outside, leaving untouched those inside (but leading to loss of detail in heavily saturated areas). DxO’s method tries to match the best of the two intents, and the aggressiveness of what happens at the borders of the smaller color space is dictated by the “protect saturated colors” slider.

Correct me if I had understood wrong, but it seems to me that it’s working well.

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Soft proofing is a side step in the workflow of pl and other programs. It doesn’t influence that workflow. It might influence your screen depending on it’s settings/possibilities, that’s why you shouldn’t use it while editing.
Perceptual is the common used rendering intent. Well, I believe. Only in special circumstances another intent is used, by example with high quality reproductions.

George

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Thanks for the recollection, Luca.

Just one correction (as I understand it); the Protect Saturated Colors Algorithm (PSCA) that’s applied when Soft Proofing is activated, and when Exporting-to-disk, is not associated with the slider provided with Color Rendering (although, unfortunately, they have a similar name).

There is no slider associated with the PSCA that’s applied when Soft Proofing / Exporting … it is completely automatic.

John M

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I’m not an expert on color management, I’m just digging in it like most of us. I understood color management is part of the os. One can view and change the settings. Win 10.

It’sin Dutch, sorry :confused:

George

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yes, true – and a bit more in detail

  • The perceptual rendering intent compresses / squeezes all colours (all out-of-gamut + in-gamut colours) until they fit in the target’s color space. – This RI shifts all colours, but keeps the visual relation between them. Therefore it is commonly recommended and less critical for the average user.

  • The relative colorimetric rendering intent compresses / squeezes (only) the out-of-gamut colours until they ‘meet’ the border of the target’s colour space. – This RI leaves the ‘reproducible’ colours intact, but crushes those ‘outside’.


DxO uses it’s own ‘automatic’ method with export – see description by @Lucabeer in post #20
– and is not user configurable.

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Hi Wolfgang,

That is a very interesting post and much to try. I have certainly learned something From that (and the rest off this thread). Many thanks for making the effort - I often think DxO is as much about its great community as it is the software itself.

Colin

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There’s no contradiction between my post and of @Lucabeer .
I just wonder that if soft-proofing means to see how an image looks at another device, how that interacts with an own rendering intent. If everybody uses it’s own rendering intent where is then that uniformity that color management tries to gain.
If I download a printer profile from my printservice for soft proofing then I expect that pl is using that one as it is and not changing it.
On export that isn’t important, the image is the end product. But here we’re talking about soft proofing.

George

I did do some further research. From The Manual of Photography.


The second diagram and its explanation is describing exactly whta happens.
The conversion between color spaces goes via a ‘profile connection space’.
I can’t get it rotated to portrait. :worried: :worried:

George

Hi George,
all good – and I was referring to @Lucabeer’s summarize, how DxO handles rendering with export.

Softproof is nothing else than an on-screen simulation, what to expect with export to a certain target / colour space. It is useful when colour spaces differ … and usually the last step after editing.

As explained, it makes sense to use a virtual copy for softproofing, to then adjust the proof version to taste (if you think it’s necessary) and export from there (e.g. with the sRGB IEC… profile) – without changing the master file.
While a sRGB screen limits to see the full range of a wide gamut pic, softproof gives the possibility to check (and adjust) for the export output.

Now, with DxO using an ‘automated’ not user configurable rendering for export (in case of sRGB / AdobeRGB / DisplayP3 profiles), one might think to get a visual discrepancy in softproof … from choosing the fixed rendering intents perceptual or relative colorimetric.
– But that is not the case. The same ‘automated’ rendering is applied to the softproof so that it looks identical to the equivalent export.
To check yourself, you can export from the softproof copy (“same as softproof”) and compare the softproof version to its output. – It’s the user interface, that is so far unclear. :frowning:

I just wonder that if soft-proofing means to see how an image looks at another device, how that interacts with an own rendering intent. If everybody uses it’s own rendering intent where is then that uniformity that color management tries to gain.

Well, it’s up to us,

  1. what hard- and software we use
    and
  2. how we interpret & edit the file before we export the pic – as recommended with the colour profile included, so that the colour managent can pick it up.

With an sRGB monitor you can check (and adjust) for sRGB output,

  • especially when working with wide gamut pics
  • before sending pics to your printing provider

If I download a printer profile from my printservice for soft proofing then I expect that pl is using that one as it is and not changing it.

PL is not going to change your printer profile, but you can adjust your file (–> the VC / softproof version), so that it looks good to you, before you export that one with the sRGB IEC … profile – that’s the usual way.


And to wrap it up – personally, I don’t count on other user’s devices, as everybody uses something different, from high quality calibrated screens right to smartphones, and not to forget, people have their habits (reasons) how to set up things – if they do.

Wolfgang

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I think you misunderstood me. Softproofing is meant to see how an image is reproduced on another device, not connected to my pc. That’s only possible when the used rendering intent is the same. There’s no room for pl to make it’s own rendering intent.

George

Yes. And also it’s worthwhile pointing out the obvious; that we can actually see the result of Soft Proofing for a different color space only if our monitor is capable of rendering that color space. (For example, we cannot see the result of Soft Proofing for, say, export to the wider P3 color space if our monitor is only capable of rendering the sRGB color space).

In this case, Soft Proofing is still a useful workflow step, as we can use the “Out of Gamut” buttons on the histogram to check how/whether the image will “fit” within the target color space.
image

Yes - that applies particularly (as Wolfgang then goes on to explain), when the intended target is a printer, or via an ICC Profile to a different Color Space.

For the most common case, however (where we are working with PLv6 on an sRGB monitor - - and exporting-to-disk via the sRGB profile - and consuming the result on that same sRGB monitor - and/or sharing with other common/typical users with sRGB monitors - and/or posting to the interwebs, etc ; where the expected color space is sRGB) - - - my personal approach is to activate Soft Proofing right from the start, and simply leave it on all thru my editing process. (In fact, I have it activated via my automatic preset) … It’s all just simpler that way, I reckon.

John M

Spot on :white_check_mark:

Actually, the implication of the behaviour that Wolfgang describes above results in that not being so;

  • PLv6 is applying an additional, automated “Protect Saturated Colors” algorithm (PSCA) when we Export-to-Disk … Note: This is NOT related to the same-named slider with Color Rendering.

  • Therefore, even if we’re doing everything on the same sRGB monitor, including Exporting-to-Disk via ICC Profile = sRGB, it is always advisable to Soft Proof if you’re expecting WYS-is-always-WYG.

See more details on this on my post just above this one.

Also see here for attempt by @KeithRJ & me (with help from others too) to map PLv6’s color management pipeline. Note, tho, that it’s a Work-in-Progress.

Regards, John M