Remove/Delete Image dialog - wording very poor and confusing

DxO PhotoLab Feature requests
1

You may or may not have noticed that the wording on the dialog for deleting images from either the Library or the film strip is not particularly clear.

Most people more than likely ignore the wording and simply only read the Cancel or Remove button captions.

In English…

The popup menu item uses the word “Remove…” and looks like this…

Capture d’écran 2021-01-08 à 13.21.44

Opinions may differ but, in the context of the more complicated wording in the dialog, this could be better worded as “Delete…”

Clicking on this menu item prompts a warning dialog…
Capture d’écran 2021-01-08 à 13.23.28
… which is in two parts and uses “Remove” for the confirmation button, even though the rest of the wording uses “delete”

  • The title reads…
    Are you sure you want to delete the selected image(s) from the disk?

If we are to change the menu and confirmation button, this is fine, although it might be a nice touch to include how many images are to be deleted.

  • The body text reads…
    This will delete the Master(s) image and all associated Virtual Copies by moving the original images to the trash if possible. Otherwise they will be permanently deleted.

This text is very confusing.

  1. If you haven’t selected any Masters, the text about the Master(s) being deleted is irrelevant.
  2. If you have selected multiple Masters, the grammar is wrong.

My proposal is to rework this dialog to be clearer.

The title text should continue to read…

Are you sure you want to delete the selected image(s) from the disk?

… or quantity sensitive variants…

Are you sure you want to delete the selected image from the disk?

or

Are you sure you want to delete the selected 3 images from the disk?

The body text should read…

If you have selected Master image(s), it/they will be removed along with all associated Virtual Copies. If possible, the original image(s) will be moved to the trash, along with any related sidecar file(s), otherwise they will be permanently deleted.

The French version suffers from the same difference in wording used for the menu item and dialog button.

2

Joanna, have you noticed that all images are marked with an “M” in the Title bar?
Under this new conditions, all images are masters, unless they are VCs.

BUT: This “M” has crept in silently, but is only present on thumbnails in the film strip if VCs are present.

The text could also read:
The selected item(s) will be deleted. Proceed? Buttons: “CANCEL” and “PROCEED” or
“NO” and “YES”

PS: Vote for your request…

3

In a related issue, I would like to have the delete button back ( Mac).
Here.

4

Pl delete/remove acts different if the image is part of a project.
User guide p212.

Delete… : This command behaves differently depending on the source (folder, project) and whether it is being applied to an original image or to a virtual copy. In a project: An original image is removed from the selected project (and not from any other project), but is not placed intothe trash; likewise of a virtual copy. In a folder: An original image is moved into the trash, and any virtual copies are deleted from the folder and from anyprojects they were in.

Remove… : This command behaves differently depending on the situation:In a project, the selected image will be removed from it (but not moved to the trash). In a folder without virtual copies, the image is moved to the trash.

The interface of pl is not the best, politely said.

George

5

In that case, the menu item and dialog for removing from a project is correct but it looks like someone tried to take a shortcut and use the same menu item and a dialog (especially the buttons) for deleting from a folder.

In any case, the text in the user guide is not particularly well expressed.

Let’s hope @StevenL can react to this and others like it during his review on UI/UX consistency. I know it started out as making things consistent between macOS and Windows but it seems there is a need to do the same at a single OS level as well.

Agreed. IMHO, it looks like stuff was put together in too much haste, to get the next release out of the door but without caring about the little things. PL really is an excellent product but, especially when your job has been to write first class software, you tend to see these anomalies, which just take the shine of it.

6

I wasn’t sure what was meant with trash. It means deleting from the disk. It’s moved to the recycle bin. In windows, I don’t know about apple.

George

7

Same thing.

8

Hi there!
Thanks for pointing it out!!!

This is going to be added to my personal “UX’s enhancement list”

Steven.

1 Like
9

Good call @Joanna and thanks @StevenL for jumping on this.

Clear wording is very important when asking the user to make a decision and never more so than when destroying something.

A couple of related points that may prove useful:

  1. Remove versus delete
    On the IBM server I use at work, there are some commands that say delete and some that say remove. It took me years to recognise the distinction. Delete means “the whole thing” is destroyed. Remove means “part of a thing” is destroyed. For example a distribution list is deleted or a distribution list entry is removed. That may have been an arbitrary decision on IBM’s part (30+ years ago) but I do like the distinction. This would suggest virtual copies are removed and masters are deleted.

  2. Buttons on pop-up windows
    Also going back 30+ years, I still have a style guide for the RISCOS operating system from Acorn Computers. It describes best practice for such pop-ups. I cannot find the book at this time but it boils down to always using active verbs on buttons and ideally describing the action the button will perform. So “Delete 4 photos from disk” would be the ultimate button text. The use of “Cancel” to back out from an action seems to be consistent these days, but “OK” should never be used unless the pop-up is informational only and there is no decision to be made by the user, i.e. it is the only button.

1 Like
10

The Win version uses much simpler, clear wording - perhaps providing the model for the Mac version;

For “Remove” of a VC only; image

For “Remove” of a (M)aster version, with VC(s): image

For “Remove” of a stand-alone image: image

To Joanna’s point about “Remove” vs “Delete” - - there is some inconsistency around this; as can be seen in wordage in dialogue boxes above (So, even the Win version needs some clean-up !)

John M

11

The wording is much simpler and therefore clearer, though I would still advocate for active verbs on the buttons.

1 Like
12

I would say ‘remove from’ means it’s relation to something else is broken/made undone.
In the example of zkarj the distribution list has a relation to something else. By removing the relation is broken but the list is still there somewhere.

Deleting is vanishing. Used is the deleting function of the os. In windows the image is moved to the recycle bin, in apple to the trash as I learned. It’s still there but not accessible, except for undelete or emptying the recycle bin/trash. Last one I’m not sure of, apple. :thinking:
Trash seems to be the apple naming of recycle bin. But it is also used as the name of an internal directory like in thunderbird.

George

1 Like
13

“Trash” is the American english word. It is translated in other macOS languages, including several versions of english…

Delete and erase usually refers to something going away completely, remove, move to something going away from point A or going from point A to point B.

Deleting a file in macOS can mean two things: The file is moved to the trash/waste/Papierkorb… from where it can be restored, or, the file goes away without chance for a restore. The latter case is usually signaled by a message saying that a restore is not possible.

Question to DxO’s @StevenL:
On what occasions does PhotoLab delete a file without putting it into the bin/waste/trash/dump…? I suppose that files go to the trash (and can therefore be reanimated) while VC’s go away definitely.
-> It might be worth pointing out the differences to make a critical operation easier to digest.

14

Based somewhat on the Windows dialogs that @John-M posted, here are my suggestions for what should happen when we want to “delete” images.

It turns out to be remarkably complicated to cover all bases with correct and clear grammar.

1. From the folder system…

Selected Menu item Dialog text Buttons
Single standalone image Delete… Your selection contains 1 image. Are you sure you want to delete it? Cancel Delete
Multiple standalone images Delete… Your selection contains n images. Are you sure you want to delete them? Cancel Delete
1 virtual copy Remove… Your selection contains 1 virtual copy. Are you sure you want to remove it? Cancel Remove
Multiple virtual copies Remove… Your selection contains n virtual copies Are you sure you want to remove them? Cancel Remove
1 Master Delete… Your selection contains a master. Deleting this master will also delete all its associated virtual copies Are you sure you want to delete this image? Cancel Delete
n Masters Delete… Your selection contains n masters. Deleting these masters will also delete all their associated virtual copies Are you sure you want to delete these images? Cancel Delete
1 Master plus 1 associated virtual copy Delete… Your selection contains both a master and only 1 associated virtual copy. Deleting this master will also delete all its associated virtual copies Are you sure you want to delete this image? Cancel Delete
1 Master plus n associated virtual copies Delete… Your selection contains both a master and only n of its associated virtual copies. Deleting this master will also delete all its associated virtual copies Are you sure you want to delete these images? Cancel Delete
1 Master plus n unrelated virtual copies Delete… Your selection contains both a master and one or more unrelated virtual copies. Deleting this master will also delete all its associated virtual copies. Unrelated virtual copies will simply be removed from their related master Are you sure you want to delete these images? Cancel Delete
n Masters plus n unrelated virtual copies Delete… Your selection contains both n masters and one or more unrelated virtual copies. Deleting this master will also delete all its associated virtual copies. Unrelated virtual copies will simply be removed from their related masters Are you sure you want to delete these images? Cancel Delete

1. From the Projects system… (much simpler)

Selected Menu item Dialog text Buttons
Single image Remove… Your selection contains 1 image. It will only be removed from this project and will not be deleted from disk Are you sure you want to remove it from this project? Cancel Remove
Multiple images Remove… Your selection contains n images. They will only be removed from this project and will not be deleted from disk Are you sure you want to remove them from this project? Cancel Remove

In each case, the default button (in bold) is the non-destructive option. At present, it is all too easy to hit the Enter key and delete stuff without a second thought.

Although Masters and their sidecars can be recovered from the trash/recycle, unrelated virtual copies will be lost forever.

Do we need to go to this level of detail?

15

Looks ok and how it should be.
Just a remark. I don’t think virtual copies can be removed, only internal deleted. And what are unrelated virtual copies?

George

16

I’d completely loose the “are you sure…” text and name the buttons Cancel and Proceed

17

That’s an interesting subtlety, George - I see what you’re getting at; as Virtual copies don’t actually exist … they’re just “virtuals” !

In this case, tho, I reckon the verb “remove” is correct - as that’s what you’re doing (as there’s no real image to delete). On the other hand, “delete” is the correct verb (in line with Windows usage, at least - I don’t know about Mac?) for the case where something real is actually deleted.

John M

18

A virtual copy is just a piece of text in the edit list\dop file.
Removing something means to get it out of some context but it still exists.
When deleting something it doesn’t exist anymore.
When deleting a virtual copy, then that piece of text is deleted. It doesn’t exist anymore. Not even in the thrash\recycle bin for it’s done internal in the program.
It’s not that important but it just doesn’t fit in the recommendations.
Just my thoughts.

George

19

And this is the problem with language. That’s how you interpret it but others may do so differently, which makes designing user interaction dialogs notoriously difficult to get right.

In the example of the OS (Windows or macOS), should we ever say we delete files or should we, like in the context menu for macOS Finder, say “Move to Trash” or “Move to Recycle Bin”

In the case of a virtual copy, yes the text is deleted but you could equally well say that you removed it from the rest of the text.

Or should we just use “Delete” everywhere except for Projects, where Remove is far more appropriate?

1 Like
20

To me the main difference is that with deleting the object doesn’t exist anymore, but with removing the object still exists. The virtual copy doesn’t exist anymore so it is deleting for me.
I thought that was part of your problem in the opening post.

George