So there’s no change in functionality, only in the naming of the export option for DNG.
Maybe there is a misunderstanding because earlier you wrote:
The Color Rendering Palette also contains renderings of Filmpack presets.
So the question is when I choose the “All corrections except Color Rendering” (PL6) that Filmpack renderings (or other rendering) should be applied and not applying some kind of “Camera Profile” is something different?
I do not understand. If I export an image twice, first with wide gamut and then with legacy gamut to DNG with the option “only noice and optical corrections” both DNGs look different in DxO PL6 and also both images are different in Photoshop (if I open both images with the same ACR default settings).
That seems logical to me.
With the new wider color space you export a file with more colors while the legacy is reduced.
It should not make a difference, the color space is not “legacy” neither “wide” it is the camera color space.
In that case with legacy color space which is Adobe RGB, I guess it wasn’t possible to work outside this space and then export only colors from this space.
Now I exported both DNGs in PL6 to TIFFs in Adobe RGB and the images are still different.
(Coming (back) from this thread here: DXO PL6 wrong color in the DNG exported to LR - #13 by Photo-DKO )
Ok, We should be able to have control over this.
After one more day of exprimenting, I came to the conclusion this is very camera-dependant: the explanations given above confirm this. Some brands are very affected, others less so. Fujifilm X-Trans sensors are VERY affected: without the Camera Profile the rendering is unusable. This explains perhaps why some users don’t seem to get the point: their cameras might be less affected than others. In Lightroom we cannot apply a Default Camera Profile separately from the curveSo we’re experiencing Adobe Color’s curve (or whatever else we choose but none are meant for this purpose and Adobe Color is defined in the EXIF as default for the DNG’s and the result is awful) on top of what we exported. DxO should give us an option to keep or not to keep the Camera Default profile when exporting to DNG “All corrections applied”.
OTOH, in Capture One, we can select the camera’s ICC profile separately from the curve, so for a DNG “Aca” exported from DPL, when I select my camera body’s ICC and choose any Fuji profile for the curve, the DNG from DxO renders perfectly fine.
So please DxO, do us a favor and add this as an export option.
(And yes, I know I could work on tiffs, but I do a lot (a major part) of nightscenes and I have much less wiggle room for the highlights with tiffs than with raws or DxO DNG’s, I tested this a lot and it’s not satisfactory).
When I export as DNG “all corrections applied” and re-open this DNG in PhotaLab (6.3) I do not see the same thing, I get artifacts.
Example:
1: I made a custom .dcp profile in X-Rite ColorChecker software from this very capture
2: applied this profile in PL6.3 on the raw file, exported as DNG all corrections applied, and as jpeg.
3. opened the resulting DNG in Photolab 6.3. Result: artifacts (color shifts).
See here:
The raw file with the DCP applied:
https://offringa.freeboxos.fr:16871/share/JK4lRRVfF5o9VzMr/DSCF1840_X100V_DxO%20PL6%20WG_Aca-DCP-RAW.jpg
The DNG export re-opened in PL6:
https://offringa.freeboxos.fr:16871/share/PhzVOXyRzkCKSS4K/DSCF1840_X100V_DxO_PL6%20WG_Aca_DCP-DNG.jpg
These two files are supposed to look absolutely identical, according to all the explanations I’ve gathered, including form DxO staff.
Download and view the images outside of the forum please, the forum software strips the colorspace information when resizing (??!! This is incredible for a Photo Editing software support forum!!)
Photo-DKO
You do not provide enough information here to repeat your experiment. Please provide a link to the original raw file (not a jpg) and to the DCP file so others can try this. Also, are you on a MAC or a PC? I’ve tried to replicate what you are seeing using my own RAW files, DCPs, etc., but to date I have seen only tiny differences, as advertised by DxO, and nothing like you present here. At the moment, I’m left wondering if there’s something unusual going on with your Fujifilm files, or something else entirely. Thanks.
@Photo-DKO / Dirk - - I suggest you add your OS details to your profile description … so this question then answers itself.
Yes, it would indeed be a step forward if others could reproduce it, so here you are:
(I could have posted them right away but this is all very time consuming and I have daytime obligations too! Sorry for that)
The DCP profile:
https://offringa.freeboxos.fr:16871/share/_SHKVdMfaTjaxoSJ/335%20Daylight%202023.dcp
The original raw file from a Fujifilm X100V:
https://offringa.freeboxos.fr:16871/share/XV47IvX301AUX-IT/DSCF1840_X100V.RAF
I’m on Windows 10 BTW.
Same here. X-Trans sensors are really different from Bayer sensors, and DxO support for Fujifilm is fairly recent. I have raised the question many times and most members here don’t see what I’m complaining about, so it could well be a problem with X-Trans support in DPL. But I’m really guessing here…
I’ve taken native RAW files from four different non-Fujifilm cameras into PL6 WG using the DxO Standard preset. To each I’ve applied a DCP profile in the Color Rendering palette. Next, I exported a 16-bit sRGB TIFF (reference) directly from the native file, a DNG (all corrections applied), and finally a TIFF exported from the previously exported DNG. The native file with the DCP profile applied and all three exports gave very similar images when examined in PL6 and the histograms budged barely, if at all.
When viewing the DNG files in PL6 I noticed that DxO had cleverly applied the generic camera profiles by default. This is important because DNGs need a camera profile for proper display. The DxO camera profiles had been stripped at export by convention.
I repeated this exercise using the Fujifilm RAF file and the DCP profile provided by Photo-DKO (thank-you!) and it was a bear. The three exported files were generally similar (and probably good enough), but not as exact as those reported above. I noticed a couple of unusual things here. First, the DxO Standard profile had a huge effect on the native RAF file, flattening and desaturating it to an extent I had never seen before. Second, the DNG Protect Saturated colors was set automatically at 41 – I didn’t see anything remotely similar in the examples above, PSC mostly 0 or single digits. I tried a different DCP profile and did not see this effect. Third, the DCP profile provided by Photo-DKO added back significant contrast and saturation to arrive at a display image somewhere between that of the native image (optical corrections only) and that with the DxO standard profile activated.
Taking DNGs with significant corrections applied into LR, etc., is not a DxO recommended workflow. Trying to find an appropriate initial profile for these applications may present a real challenge. Photo-DKO is aware of this but has said that he has a special use case.
First of all, many thanks for taking your time to for all this, I know how time-consuming it can be, I appreciate it.
So, when you compare my output of the Fuji raw with the custom DCP applied, exported as DNG Aca, and reimported into PL6E WG, with your own result of the same, are they different?
The DxO Camera Profile (X100V) is quite flat, but it’s not as flat as Adobe Neutral in LIghtroom: it seems like PL6 adjusts the white and black points automatically, (like “auto” in Capture One’s “levels” tool) whereas LR doesn’t seem to do so.
Interesting, on my workstation PSC remains at zero with the same file and the DxO camera profile.
Yes, I want to use the Filmpack/Viewpoint integration and the raw engine w/DeepPrime but I do all my further adjustments in Lightroom. I do a lot of low-light photography and the “Selective Tone” controls from PL are not that selective (they are approx. as broad as the luminance sliders in LR/ACR’s Color Grading tools) and not as efficient as in Lightroom (or as in CaptureOne). I tried exporting as Tiff and work on that in LR, colors are of course accurate but I have significantly less latitude in highlight control than with a DNG, even a DNG “Aca”. I know I opened a can of worms here, so please readers, ignore and let’s keep on-topic 
Sidenote: Let’s look at it this way: when I bought a Photolab/VP/FP Licence, I had demoed the programs but on not so challenging files (no deep reds and stuff). What triggered the purchase was the advertisement of “seamless Lightroom integration”. There’s is even a special button: “export to Lightroom”. Very soon I noticed these color issues when exporting to Lightroom, even in PL5, and talked about it in this forum, raised support tickets, to no avail. Now, two years later, in this very thread, I learn from @Barbara-S that PhotoLab deliberately strips off the Camera Profile that Lightroom actually needs to correctly display DNG’s from DPL. And unlike CaptureOne, Lightroom/ACR cannot load curves and icc profiles separately. And “Adobe Color” is nothing but neutral!! Adobe color on top of a Filmpack profile simply doesn’t work. It took almost two years to get somewhere, it’s really not easy to understand without the essential information.
Basically, the “seamless Lightroom integration” should have provided an option: “when doing “export to Lightroom” do NOT strip off this mandatory DxO Camera Profile”.
Back to our experiment: it also looks like there are several issues that collide with each other making thing even more difficult to understand: if your results, with the same raw file and the same profiles and the same procedure on the same OS are different, than we have more than a “we strip off the camera profile” problem. If it’s really confirmed that you get different results, than the only thing I can think of the is different between your workstation and mine, is the colormanagement: my display profile is different than yours.
Could you please post (as a dowloadable file) a jpeg exported from the DNG you reloaded in PL6E WG (DNG Aca that has my custom DCP applied) so I can see the difference between your result and mine?
Thanks many!!
Dirk
The resultant file from this operation would no longer be a linear DNG. It would be a DNG wrapper that contained a fully rendered image, no different than a jpg or TIFF. In LR you would not be able to do what you want with that file.
Look, please do me the courtesy of repeating my experiment with or without an applied DCP file. Try doing what I did with a different Fujifilm RAW file and DCP as well. Honestly, I can’t tell how you produced your images. As I said originally, you did not provide enough information to repeat YOUR experiment. I did. Thanks.
I think your DCP makes the difference in my setup. When I export an all corrections applied DNG starting from the DxO Standard profile without an applied DCP and bring it back into PL6 the PSC is 3 in line with my experiences with RAW files from my other cameras. Thanks.
No problems, but I’m puzzled: I described exactly what I did and posted the files I did it with… I can think of more or better information I could give you…
So this is what I did, same as in original post but reformulated for better comprehension:
1: I made a custom .dcp profile (provided) in X-Rite ColorChecker software from provided Fujifilm raw file
2: applied this profile in PL6.3E WG on the raw file, exported as jpeg for reference (download N°1)
3: exported as DNG all corrections applied
4. opened the resulting DNG in Photolab 6.3E WG as-is (DxO Camera Profile (X100) is automtaatically selected) and exported as jpeg (download N°2)
Both jpegs should look identical: that’s what @Barbara-S from DxO said.
download N°1:
https://offringa.freeboxos.fr:16871/share/JK4lRRVfF5o9VzMr/DSCF1840_X100V_DxO%20PL6%20WG_Aca-DCP-RAW.jpg
download N°2:
https://offringa.freeboxos.fr:16871/share/PhzVOXyRzkCKSS4K/DSCF1840_X100V_DxO_PL6%20WG_Aca_DCP-DNG.jpg
It’s really interesting this cross-examination because if you don’t see the same result when reproducing these exact steps there is, as I see it, a problem involving system-specific data, like, for instance, our display profiles.
That’s the point indeed. As long as the DxO Camera Profile is applied it’s all fine: that’s what @Barbara-S said as well. As soon as that profile is removed, the issue appears.
Try this:
OK, I’ve done as you requested and a bit more. I opened your original Fujifilm RAF file in PL6 WG with the DxO Optical Corrections only preset, applied the Camera Body Fujifilm X100V color rendering, and exported to DNG with all corrections applied.
I brought the exported DNG back into PL WG and applied the Neutral color generic color rendering. Soft proofing (display) of the DNG gave a blue OOG warning in all ICC profiles, including ProPhoto RGB. I was able to remove the OOG warning with a 60 PSC adjustment. The PSC adjustment was the same for all ICC profiles.
I next exported two TIFFs from the DNG, one sRGB and the other aRGB. Once again, the DNG and both TIFFs were very similar in appearance. There were no OOG warning in any of these images.
So, yet again, I conclude that the DxO PL DNG export function is working exactly as described by DxO and as discussed in this thread by Barbara-S.
Thanks for taking your time, once more: I appreciate it, I thnink I have some valuable elements now to write a bug report.
OK, so did I
It’s normal that if you softproof trying all output profiles and only switch on the monitor gamut warning (the blue overlay) the warning doesn’t change. It only shows the current display profile warning. That is a misunderstanding about how softproofing works…to see the different gamuts you need to softproof the output profiles (red overlay): if as output profile you select your display profile the blue and red warnings should be the same
So logically, on my monitor I get a different result for this, but it’s not really relevant
That was not really the point, of course there are only minor differences between both, that means that the colormanagement correctely remapped to either output colorspace.
On the Tiff (or jpeg, not of any importantance here) exported from the DNG with “neutral color” selected and PSC set like you did, I clearly observe a overly vibrant result with “flattened out” areas in the reds, that look liked clipped regions, but they are not present in the original raw file.
Here’s the file (jpeg): (download n°3, to be compared with download n°1 posted earlier)
They are however present in the exported DNG but not measurable as such. (I evaluated both files in RawDigger). This seems to indicate that there was clipping somewhere in the processing pipeline, before the end result was produced by remapping back to the output colorspace. Because they are clipped BEFORE that stage, and the result is remapped back (presumably using relative intent) into our output colorspaces (monitor space, Adobe98 or sRGB files, prints…) we can’t remap them back and “unclip” them: they are baked in.
I beg to differ. My conclusion (at this point) is that you have a different monitor than mine.
This is what I’m referring to:
Please don’t get me wrong, this is not about who’s wrong and who isn’t: you actually provided me with some more clues and I’m grateful for that. Progress is being made.
You have started several threads alleging “bugs" in the DxO PL DNG export process. Again and again, you have been presented evidence that this is incorrect. Yet you persist. Do you not realize that you have painted yourself into a corner? And I mean literally a corner, the tiny red corner in between Adobe RGB and DCI-P3 color spaces.
So, file your “bug” report with DxO – you’ve every right to do so. But before you do you might consider trying another test RAW file, one that is not 10% underexposed and one without boundary pushing colors. Also, consider not whipping that file left and right with curve-bending and color space-busting adjustments. Might make for a more convincing “bug” report. Good-luck.
What’s the matter with you guys here? Why should each and every discussion end up in personal attacks? What a weird community… You don’t even read what I say… Well good luck then.
You want me to “realise I’m painting myself in a corner” but do you yourself realise you’re not sounding at all like an expert?
EDIT:
Yeah let’s fully appreciate magenta firetrucks and fluorescent flowers, courtesy of DxO. Who would want to photograph flowers and red objects anyway? I guess that by “curve-bending and color space-busting adjustments” you mean the DCP profile I made with a Colorchecker Passport and it’s DNG profiler software? Do you realise that that’s just common practice? Package or fashion photography anyone?
Never mind, thanks anyway. I’ve remained friendly and polite, thanking everone every time, and noone forces you to engage in such discussions. Have a nice day.
