PL5 - Troubles with rating

[uncoy (Alec Kinnear)]

@alex

taking into account how many existing customers will migrate their image libraries into DxO PhotoLab 5 from the previous versions. If we would set this option checked by default, they could lose their edits applied before

A better idea would be to detect a new migration and take the steps necessary to make sure the user doesn’t lose any data. Leaving it in users’ hands is going to generate endless misunderstandings, support tickets and more lost data in the long run.

Few users will take the time to understandd andd take proper care of data management settings.

I see your metadata editing team is working very hard on these features. You should rush out a knowledge base article with the right settings and why.

Writing metadata changes immediately to the .xmp and storing all metadata in the .xmp and making the .xmp king is the only route to safely preserve metadata in a multi-application workflow. It’s not that it’s not possible to lose metadata to badly behaved apps with the .xmp king structure but without this structure, one is sure suffer metadata inconsistency and over time to lose metadata.

Windows world is way cheaper

I like my Mac Pros and I like Mojave. Sadly I don’t like DxO very much any more as I’ve made a huge investment of both money and time in your applications. Forcing users to go through the OS upgrade annually is extremely customer hostile. With OS -2 or better yet OS -3 like CaptureOne users can skip OS versions and change OS every two or three years.

I can’t imagine wasting time on a full OS update every year.

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

@uncoy

CameraBits strongly discourages choosing to do so.

If you believe that, how come their online help contains this…

When writing IPTC/XMP, you tell Photo Mechanic how to handle the writing of IPTC/XMP data. ForJPEG, TIFF, and PSD photos, you can choose to embed IPTC or XMP or both. By default, Photo Mechanic will embed both IPTC and XMP into these standard formats, but you may want to only embed IPTC for older applications or only XMP for newer applications. For TIFF-based RAW photos (e.g. 1D TIF, NEF, CR2, ORF), you can choose to embed IPTC or XMP or both. If you choose to embed neither, or for non-TIFF based RAW photos, Photo Mechanic will always create and/or update an XMP sidecar file. However, if you embed IPTC and/or XMP in a TIFF-based RAW photo, then the XMP sidecar is optional and you have three choices of how to handle them. You can always update the XMP sidecar file, or only if an XMP sidecar file is present, or only if an XMP sidecar file is present and already contains IPTC4XMP metadata. On macOS, you can also choose to add the IPTC-NAA resource fork when embedding IPTC/XMP.

I see no discouragement, only an informed choice

@uncoy

Metadata applications rooting around in RAW files is a recipe for long-term disaster.

Bearing in mind this article and many other writings on the subject, why? What exactly are the measurable risks from real world testing? Or is this all based on someone, somewhere told somebody else that they had heard from somebody that it might cause problems?

It all depends on the tool used to write and manage the metadata. I use ExifTool, which is world renowned for its integrity and safety. As do many other metadata tools.

In any case, if an app offers the choice and doesn’t force users to write to RAW files, does that make it a dangerous tool? After all, cars aren’t normally dangerous, it’s usually the nut that holds the wheel that’s the cause most deaths on the road.

@uncoy

I’m encouraged by Alex’s answers and the care DxO is taking not to allow PhotoLab’s handling of metadata to disrupt the use of external DAM and metadata solutions.

Then you should also be encouraged by my assurances that, unless you deliberately abuse my app, it will not damage your files and will play nicely with any other tool. Ah, but you can’t use my app because it has the same requirements for macOS as PL5

[uncoy (Alec Kinnear)]

@Joanna

you can’t use my app because it has the same requirements for macOS as PL5

Based on your obsession with only supporting the latest OS and your complete dependence on Apple libraries and your willingness to write to irreplaceable RAW files with what is very beta software, there’s absolutely no interest on my side.

I’d far rather pay CameraBits knowing that they have dedicated twenty years to deeply understanding practical metadata (sports agencies and wedding photographers who deal with tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of images use PhotoMechanic). Despite not requiring the latest technologies, PhotoMechanic is again lightning fast on all platforms and almost all computers (not just the latest ones).

Software developers should earn trust by their behaviour. Instead I’m seeing red flags everywhere.

When attempting to build a niche helper photo application, Iliah Borg’s work on FastRawViewer is a very good model. Focused on one issue, affordable, reliable with long term platform support.

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

@uncoy

there’s absolutely no interest on my side.

Ah, that’s a relief

[KeithRJ (Keith - Perth, Australia - Win11, PL6, VP3, Canon, DJI)]

@alex

You are right here. However, let me explain in details how .dop files are handled in relation to metadata because things are slightly more complicated than people may think here. You know that there is a master image and optional virtual copies for it. Each of them can have its own unique metadata. However, only the master copy is backended with a physical file. Taking all of these into account, we write all metadata into .dop sidecars (for simplicity) but read only those which relate to virtual copies. It means that for master copies we prefer to read metadata from the physical image and omit metadata from .dop sidecars. Does it make things clearer now?

Thanks for the very informative information @alex it has helped a lot.

[Stenis (Sten-Åke Sändh (Sony, Win 11, PL 6, CO 16, PM Plus 6, XnView))]

Alex: Look at what Joanna writes above in post 7 what happens when Nikon users rates their images already in the camera.

You wrote in #33:
“It’s not that simple to implement because you have an ability to modify metadata in PhotoLab. What we should when you modified metadata in PhotoLab (without any sync) and then modified it in a third-party application? There is a kind of a conflict.”

That´s why I have suggested you have to implement two different modes in Photolab Preferences:
One where Photolab is the metadata owner and another where an external DAM is.

In the later case you ought to inactivate the use of File - Metadata - Write and you should also inactivate all the open EXIF and IPTC elements in PhotoLibrary. That´s not all that complicated.
In this case you have to consistently READ the XMP-data that´s updated by the external application. It has to be a consistent one way flow.

Ending up with a bidirectional mess is to ask for problems and a lot of extra trouble shooting and development costs. When I read what you write it looks you are already there.

[Rich-1]

Stenis said:

The solution in Photolab 5 is this: Select File - Metadata - Read in the menues of Photolab 5. If you read the metadata you have worked with in PM Plus again it works.

I use LR (Classic 2021 so far) for file management, assign star ratings, go to Pl with the filter set to 3+ stars. I’ve used this since PL started recognizing LR ratings.

In PL4 this only shows 3+ star images. Just what is expected.

Now in PL5… I see no star ratings.

The “fix” above does not seem to work. Select all images in the folder with the filter set to all, do “Select File - Metadata - Read”, set filter to 3+… nothing shows?

So, are we now supposed to reset all ratings in DXO or is this going to fixed promptly?

Richard

[Rich-1]

Problem solved… user error (looking at backup not working drive…)… The fix above is not necessary for my case it seems.

Richard

[be51 (Escaich)]

@Joanna

Be careful. That is a libelous statement that you cannot support because you haven’t even looked at it. As I said previously, my app is 100% compliant with XMP, MWG and Dublin Core standards. What it does do is offer the option of writing metadata to RAW files if a user so wishes - according to @Stenis, just like PhotoMechanic

Joanna, what is your app ?

[Joanna (Joanna Carter)]

Answered in DM

[Stenis (Sten-Åke Sändh (Sony, Win 11, PL 6, CO 16, PM Plus 6, XnView))]

I guess there can be situations where confusion will occur if some people tag ratings in EXIF and other applications strictly uses just IPTC wherher as a namespace in IPTC or in old fashion IPTC. Photo Mechanic covers both the later but not the first if you configures it that way. That could explain why a rating not changes in Photolab despite the use of a File -Metadata - Read.