Larger working space than adobe rgb - for not loosing colors our often very expensive sensors provide us

Off course I mean clipping with blinkies.

George

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Thanks JoPoV, what you say is also very true.

I will not paraphrase you and the others who said very interesting things. I support the enlargment of the working color space and the softproofing features.

If I had to rank it :
1- larger and selectable working colorspace, or ProPhotoRGB color space if you need to hardcode it. The thing is I want to have a workflow that doesn’t force me to choose between amazing DPL denoise and demosaicing algorithms and strict color fidelity. today If I have to do a fine art print out of my medium format RAW, I use CameraRAW. At the very minimum to be able to output 16 bits TIFF (or more?) in ProphotoRGB, without the step of “color losing internal AdobeRGB conversion”. It will straighten the workflow.

2- Softproofing, better management of the color profiles, with actual rendering simulation (and black point compensation)

3- updated printing module, with pattern printing (ie put several time the same picture ,in a given pattern if you want to print it large…what I do sometime. For example be able to copy paste the image and move/rotate it to optimise the paper when you print out of a very expensive roll). This latter functionality is missing from Adobe, you have to do your own printing pattern by hand…

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Exactly. Photolab seems to target high-end equipment with advance testing on it, then offering advanced functions for demosaicing, but it kills the quintessence of it.
Isn’t that sad ?
Without forgetting that today high-end equipment is tomorrow mid-range equipment.

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If you only want optical module and denoising then you can use rawdng.
That’s cameracolorspace .
Note, CA can’t be shiftend much after that.

Yes I know, but the point here is to explain how we want DPL to change to better adapt to our ideal workflow.

I want deepPrime, demosaicing, and optical profile from DxO, AND have a non destructive (color space wise) workflow. If I can’t have this, or I need utmost color fidelity for printing, I have to skip DPL entirely and use CameraRAW and Photoshop for adjustment and softprooging with ProphotoRGB color space from the start. I will have to check CaptureOne about this.

I don’t want to bother with another soft.

The other thing that come into mind (another subject but linked to our thread anyhow) is the lens module “commoditization”. I don’t know if DXO patented the lens module data structure, but I noticed the lens modules are smaller compared to what they use to be during dxo4/5/6 era. If CameraRAW could use the DxO lens modules in any way…well (maybe its possible), only the DeepPrime, local adjustements and DAM features would remain as unique selling points.

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here a good and not obsolete :face_with_monocle: link

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is that man drunk? or what? holy cow, i can’t understand half of it. :rofl:

And pictures ? Did you undestand pictures ? :face_with_spiral_eyes:

Moin Peter,

thanks for the statement, first I thought holy man either I’m going deaf or my bluetooth headphones are broken. :rofl: :joy:

I stopped after 5 minutes

enjoy the week

greetings

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Now i have the hole day of time and tryed again his visuals are clear but not divers enough.
The argument of compressing color out side the colorspace to the nearest colorinside the colorspace is shown and i think no one would disagre on that fact.
As far as i can think of for most pro’s they would need a bigger then AdobeRGB colorspace to work with because of printing. And they would need to work with those kind of viewing tools inorder to connect the dots. Because there arn’t prophoto screens as far as i know of. So you can’t “see” the product in preview on a digital viewing device. You have to relay on the tools to plot the image in a chosen colorspace.
So i think the colorproofingtoolset is more important to implement in dxopl then a image preview prophotocolorspace is.
Ofcoarse it needs to be able to plot a prophotocolorspace in order to see if the image fits but not as a screendriver’s profile.
Then again i am at the first flight of stars in colormanagment in my own work so i could be completely wrong. :grin:

In the end if customers needs prophoto and only buy dxopl If it’s provided then it needs to be delivered or they lose the edge.

Yes. It is about printing for now.
It is about not definatly loosing colors that can be printed and wich are recorded by our sensors, when using photolab as demosaiceur.
Sensors wich have color spaces wich go far beyond adobe rgb now. Colors that our eyes can see but that adobe rgb can’t reproduce.
It is about printing but screens are evolving fast too, so …

And no, it’s not for looking social network pictures on a cell phone. At least not for now.

It is not about having an image preview colorspace (I think you mean a display color space here), wich is impossible, because it would require a screen able to display prophoto color space.

It is about having photolab working in prophoto color space and not in adobe rgb color space (not displaying but working).
As soon as an image is converted in rgb pixels (= as soon as it is demosaiced from raw), it needs a “birth” color space. This birth color space is photolab working color space.
And every color outside this working color space is irreversibly CLIPPED.

You can view or save or print your images in smaller color space than the working color space without loosing any color.
But if you save and use your image in a bigger color space than the working color space (wich is of course possible) you will only convert in this bigger target color space colors thats exists in the smaller working color space. Colors that have been CLIPPED when working in adobe rgb will never come back.

And colorprofingtoolset will only prof colors that can exists in the working color space, because other colors have been clipped and do not exist anymore - no magic button to make them come back; they have been clipped since their birth because working in adobe rgb.
So first needed is the largest working color space possible wich retain as much colors as possible from what actual and future sensors are and will be able to deliver. This in the first place, when demosaicing, because if not some colors the sensor has taken will never exist.

Don’t cut arms and legs of the baby just because the stroller is too small.

Would be great if they update the preview software to a full rendered sRGB preview.
(so a fullscreen sharpnes and tonality rendering as like a export in sRGB.)
And then a step forward in AdobeRGB preview screendriver.

Dxopl does a continuance demosiacing and adjusting so the cameracolorspace and its colorvalue as imagesource is continuance used for previewing. Still your right everyting larger then AdobeRGB is clipped and compressed so not available for printing any more.
If it’s compressed it could be possible to recalculate to the most likely original colors outside the AdobeRGB to repopulate in prophoto. (it would be a gues not a turn back to original) it’s then more stretching the AdobeRGB based image in the larger colorspace. Which would probably resulting in horrendes artifacs.

So i am with you.
1 colorproofing like that program i got from @Wolfgang .
2 cameracolorspace => prophoto/AdobeRGB workspace(depending on user) => previewer colorspace, now sRGB.
3 adjustable (in away that i can see which colorspace the blinkies are showing.)
Thus, flooding srgb? [sRGB] icon turns red, and when i set export to adobe, blinkies are set for adobe. Same as histogram. Image overflood AdobeRGB? Adobergb icon turns red. Image colorspace flooding prophoto? You guest => prophoto icon turns red.
This way you can see that you have troubles in the colorspace and some plotting is needed to see which part of the image is touched by compression.

We will see what v6 brings us next year.:grin:

Hi Peter,
Your screen can reproduce sRGB colour space.

Screen Shot 02-09-22 at 10.44 AM
PL uses Your monitor profile to present the files in sRGB
(suppose with RI perceptual).

  • Momentary PL’s internal colour space is AdobeRGB,
    meaning colours beyond AdobeRGB are lost.
  • Files in AdobeRGB colour space are converted for display,
    but keep their colour space until you might export them as sRGB file.

what’s missing

  • an indicator for the clipped colours that cannot be reproduced by Your screen
  • an indicator for the clipped colours that cannot be reproduced by the print media → Softproof

Exporting correctly is a different story.

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I ment, a preview which shows a image processed completely.
With microcontrast and denoising and optical correction as CA. And not 70% zoomed.
Ok discusion about usefull or not to see full image, screens get bigger and higher in resolution thus yes.
Workaround is a test image export and watch that in faststone viewer to see if the rawfile edit is going in the right direction.
(special export choice and folder so you can delete it easily after a wile.)

When i hit watch fullscreen i want a complete processed image to see and not just a bigger screen of the preview in my workspace. :slightly_smiling_face:

well then, that has nothing to do with ProPhoto … colour space :slight_smile:

Nope, but it’s part of the development of the preview engine that DxO needs to adress to.

  • Bigger work colorspace for printing purposes.
  • faster rendering between switching images in the fimstrip, that deley is killing for toggling back and forward images for culling.
  • a possibility for full rendered image in screen colorspace, sRGB now in the future AdobeRGB and in 4k or 8K in the future. (screendriver)
  • a simple working softproofing to check images against colorspaces of choice.

So in the bigger picture it has something to do with colorspaces. :slightly_smiling_face:

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Yes, working color space is not to be mixed up with output or display color space. I’m also in the camp who favors an internal working space which is bigger than the biggest output color space. Because otherwise you’ll loose colors, even if it is not the case very often depending on the captured (or edited) image colors.

That is for current output media (monitor and print paper/inks), but also for future improvements in monitor technology and prints.

I also think that for editing purposes, if you push colors towards the boundaries of the internal working space with one tool (e.g. saturation) then the colors will be squeezed, and subsequent tools in the internal processing pipeline will get the squeezed colors as input, which can probably can create unwanted color shifts or other artifacts. At least that is what I understood over the course of my internet research. And I might be wrong on this, I am not an expert on this math really.

darktable for example takes this a step further, the new direction since v3 is that they prefer a linear RGB working space (REC2020) in order to avoid color artifacts caused by internal math. of the tools.

Yes, softproofing is a very important feature for many who do prints (but also good if you prepare images for web). It should not be limited to the print module though, Kyosato, for those who don’t print themselves but use a printing service.

Regards

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yess…prophoto rgb would be great!

Les capteurs de nos appareils possèdent leur propres espaces couleurs qui sont convertis par Dxopl lors de leur dematricage. Mais dxopl ne nous propose que de les intégrer dans un gamut Adobe rgb ou srgb lors de la phase d’exportation.
Il serait plus logique de donner le choix à l’utilisateur de convertir leurs raw dans le gamut de leur choix au moment de l’ouverture du raw.
Et oui Jopov a raison, le gamut prophoto nous permet de ne pas “clipper” certaines couleurs… car même si l’on utilise des écrans large gamut (adobe rgb), les tirages fine art actuels restituent des couleurs incluses dans le spectre prophoto et même au-delà! Les couples papiers/machine nous offrent aujourd’hui des spectres colorimétriques étonnants…
La gestion des couleurs est aussi quelque peu floue dans Dxopl… On y mélange profil de correction ecran et espace de travail neutre (gamut) dans les préférences couleurs!