Larger working space than adobe rgb - for not loosing colors our often very expensive sensors provide us

[JoPoV]

Hi,

I know this has already been discussed, but I can’ t find the topics on the forum, so I come back with this because I think it is already very important and will probably be more and more as sensors don’t stop to evolve.

Dxo convert raw in abobe rgb, when larger color space like prophoto rgb would avoid any (or maybe less ?) color clipping when demosaicing Raw.

I suggest to all those who believe adobe rgb is enough - I remember old topics -, to read “color management for photographers” :

EIZO practical expertise | Series: Colour management for photographers

If you don’t know well this subject, as photographers I think you will be happy to discover it this way. Very well and gradually explained.
If you think you know it but don’t understand why adobe rgb is not enough, be patient, read all this and you will find answers.
And just ask yourself why adobe itself don’t use adobe RGB as lightroom working space, but Melissa, their alternative to prophoto rgb.

So Again, a request to move Dxo color space to a larger color space like prophoto rgb to keep photolab in the race of the best demosaicers.

[Guenterm (Win10, MAC OS, DPL 4, FP, VP, Nik3, Olympus)]

Hi,
also discussed here Using Lab Color in DXO

best regards

[George]

@JoPoV

Dxo convert raw in abobe rgb, when larger color space like prophoto rgb would avoid any (or maybe less ?) color clipping when demosaicing Raw.

I still wonder if that’s true.

George

[OXiDant (Peter)]

The workspace is only a workspace as far as i know.
as a smaller frame over a larger and you can move the frame around over the full scale.

So when you pull in highlight or shadow you you pull in data from outside the adobeRGB.

Unless you have a monitor which can show a bigger colorspace you don’t need a bigger workspace inside dxopl.

Only when you think of using prophoto colorspace in say LR.
And want proceed in prophoto in tiff format.
Then only rawDNG is an option which carry full camera colorspace across dxopl to exportfile.

[JoPoV]

@George

I still wonder if that’s true.

@OXiDant

Unless you have a monitor which can show a bigger colorspace you don’t need a bigger workspace inside dxopl.

Did you read the link ?
The point is about high quality printing. And yes, of course you need good monitor to see what you do.
But what’s lost when demosaicing is lost.

[OXiDant (Peter)]

Then you need colorproofing too.

[platypus (Canon & Mac (Intel and M1))]

In this post, the following was said (extract edited for clarity)

If the input image is a RAW image…the raw input colors are…in the native color space of the sensor of your camera. In that case, PhotoLab converts the sensor colors to AdobeRGB and uses that as working color space. This cannot be configured.

If the input image is an RGB image, depending on the color space you selected in your camera…colors are in fact either sRGB or AdobeRGB. In that case, PhotoLab uses this color space as working color space. And again, this cannot be configured…

The question remains: How does DxO convert the native colour space to AdobeRGB?

1. "cut corners* on import and then work with the remaining colours?
2. leave corners as they are and convert on the fly, using
   a) absolute colorimetric?
   b) relative colorimetric?
   c) any other method?

Earlier posts mentioned that PhotoLab was working without cutting corners, with a seemingly unlimited space.

@wolf, can you comment again and in more detail?

[George]

I want to reply but I get such a small edit window for that.
Am I the only one?

George

[OXiDant (Peter)]

No same here

[Guenterm (Win10, MAC OS, DPL 4, FP, VP, Nik3, Olympus)]

Hi George, the small window was discussed yesterday in another thread, and @sgospodarenko wants to check with the webadmin.

[George]

@JoPoV,

Writing this in notebook and copied to the edit window.
I’m not sure if I understood you well, but here are some thoughts.
ColorManagment is about the consistency how colors look at different output devices.
And then there’s the question of what color gamut. I don’t think a wider gamut means a better gamut. Colors have an analogue value: the frequency or wave length. The color gamut describes the limits to show the colors R,G and B within limits in frequency or wavelength.

Editing an image in sRGB 8 bit does use steps of 1/255 of that range in wavelength. A wider range will result in wider steps. That’s why AdobeRGB uses 16 bit. The steps are still smaller as 8 bit sRGB. All the wider gamuts still use 16 bit, making the steps only bigger.

When editing in a wider gamut as being used on your output device forces you to correct these colors. If all the colors are in the range of the smaller colors then that’s no problem. Otherwise you have to choose how to correct that or how the software is doing that. See @platypus.

During demosaicing no colors are lost.

George

[OXiDant (Peter)]

What i think what can be usefull is a visiualisation of the colors which are outside the chosen colorspace, colorproofing.
A colorshoe of the cameracolorspace and a overlay of the chosen colorspace.
This way you can see how far you must compress colors of a certain section.
Now we only have colors in the blinky modes.

[Wolfgang ([ Win10, PL+VP+FP, NC 3(4) ])]

As said → Add soft proofing to Photolab - #16 by sankos ( follow also further down)
→ Converting to ICC colour profile - #3 by wolf
during image export, DxO uses perceptual rendering intent and no black point compensation.

When colours outside of sRGB are detected (e.g. from wider AdobeRGB),
all colours are shifted/squeezed to fit in the smaller sRGB colour space,
while visually keeping their relation → “perceptual”.

---

The old LR 5.7 has a clever solution to visualize in Softproof mode

• if the file’s colour space exceeds the monitor’s colour space ( → monitor choice )
  
  (Melissa/ProPhoto RGB vs. AdobeRGB / sRGB)

• if the file’s colour space exceeds the print’s rendition ( → paper choice )
  
  (with profil for my printer & matte paper / RI relative)

[George]

I believe TS is reffering to the demosaicing proces. His first post makes me think that he thinks that some clipping occures due to that process and that that can be solved to use a wider gamut. This is not true.

George

[Wolfgang ([ Win10, PL+VP+FP, NC 3(4) ])]

Colour space comparison – from practice

I’ll try to show, how the monitor colour spaces

• ProPhoto RGB
• AdobeRGB
• sRGB

compare to the colour rendition of 2 different inkjet print papers

• Canson Platine Fibre Rag – Semigloss paper (neutral white)
• Tecco PCR 310 – Matte paper (almost neutral white)

which I actually use with my own profiles / Epson P800.

---

A. – Monitor colour spaces

• black – ProPhoto RGB
• yellow – AdobeRGB
• white – sRGB

---

B. – ProPhoto RGB vs. Paper

• black – ProPhoto RGB
• yellow – Semigloss paper
• white – Matte paper

---

C. – AdobeRGB vs. Paper

• black – AdobeRGB ( → Eizo CG2730)
• yellow – Semigloss paper
• white – Matte paper

---

D. – sRGB vs. Paper

• black – sRGB ( → Eizo CG2730 + L767)
• yellow – Semigloss paper
• white – Matte paper

---

---

B – a monitor with ProPhoto RGB colour space would be ideal
C – represents my monitor
D – editing in sRGB for web and some printing

[JoPoV]

Did one of you read the link provided ?
And see samples in this link ?
You should comment on those sample, maybe.

[Wolfgang ([ Win10, PL+VP+FP, NC 3(4) ])]

@JoPoV

Did one of you read the link provided ?

Yes – really old information.

[George]

It’s hard to understand what you want.There’s no relation between the sensor and the color gamut. No lost of colors. Also no lost of colors during demosaicing. The word demosaicing isn’t mentioned in your link, I didn’t find it anyway.
I think we’ve different ideas of how things are working.

George

[Wolfgang ([ Win10, PL+VP+FP, NC 3(4) ])]

@JoPoV

(from @OXiDant in post #4 )

Only when you think of using prophoto colorspace in say LR.
And want proceed in prophoto in tiff format.
Then only rawDNG is an option which carry full camera colorspace across dxopl to exportfile.

(from your post #5 )

Did you read the link ?
The point is about high quality printing. And yes, of course you need good monitor to see what you do.
But what’s lost when demosaicing is lost.

… for printing use & export in ProPhoto RGB – and you don’t loose any colour fitting the paper & printer’s colour rendition → see my post #15 → scenario B.

But then for editing, you need a monitor capable of ProPhoto colour space. Otherwise you do a ‘blind flight’ not being able to see highly saturated colours, whether they are captured by your camera’s sensor or as a result from editing → see my post #15 → scenarios C., D.

With different colour spaces one has to handle rendering intents to get a pleasing / satisfying result – hopefully in ‘full sight mode’.

---

note
PL’s enhanced printing capability is still limited by the missing softproof.

[OXiDant (Peter)]

i believe Apple/Mac can show colorspaces and the way a certain image fits in that colorspace non compressed.
i have “softproofing” in Silkypix v10 pro but i can’t see the purpose in the way i see the changes but not if it’s in or out gamut.
i have a sRGB jpeg a AdobeRGB oocjpeg and a raw file
i see saturation changing so it shifts color in to the gamut of the printer or workspace.
video

Point is what for me would work is a graphic image colorspace resemblence which is overlayed a working space. (This way you can see how much is out of gamut in a model.
(i can’t find the post i think Sankos did explain it here
(i wanted to show those mac colorspace check as example. if you have a image’s colorgraphic as overley on this you can see where it sticks out the gamut of for example AdobeRGB. And see which colors are need to be compressed in order to fit.
this is easier to grasp then the “out of gamut blinkies colors”