How to use PhotoLab on multiple Apple Computers

@KeithRJ I was writing the following when your post arrived so I will try to cover some of the same ground plus what I also wanted to add to my post.

Hopefully from my post above it should be clear that if you take a laptop with PL5 loaded on holiday/to a shoot etc. then photos can be imported onto the laptop, PL5 can be directed to navigate to the photos, presets and other editing applied, plus Ratings and Tags and if it fits your workflow keywords etc also applied.

At some point the Photos, DOPs and ‘xmp’ sidecars etc. can be copied to the main system and PL5 navigated to the directory and iff (if and only if) the database has never seen those photos in that directory before all can be imported successfully into the second/main database, which appears to be what @mikemyers is describing in the post that came in while I was writing this!

I believe that they come in with the Uuid in the DOP I described in my post and that Uuid will be stored in the database. But any change made on the main system or on the laptop will change the respective DOP Uuids and Virtual Copies are then inevitable if any attempt is made to take data in either direction, main to laptop or laptop to main.

Hence the suggestions being made to “trash” the database or rather manage it because as long as you keep a log of what was in each database it can be saved and restored later. I have “trashed” the PL5 database perhaps 20 times since PL5 release because of the testing I have been doing. Life becomes a little more complicated if keywording etc. is being used but providing that is written to the sidecar file or JPG or whatever then it is secure and the loss of the database may not be significant.

DOPs do now contain keywords but I have no evidence that PL5 is doing anything currently other than storing them in the DOP. ‘Ratings’ are in the DOP but also in the ‘xmp’ sidecar, Tags seem to be in the DOP only.

I partly agree with your notion that the split would make synchronisation simpler but to be honest providing you ensure what is in the PL5 database has been reflected in the external elements then you need the photo, DOP and ‘xmp’ sidecar and you are good to go. Except don’t go anywhere near a PL5 database that knows the photo (in the directory) or wallow in VC “heaven” or “hell”.

What is actually needed are some additional data management commands that allow VCs to be “promoted” on a single photo, selection of photos and entire directories and subdirectories basis, i.e. select an entire quarters worth of photos that have loads of VCs and “promote” them!

Except as was well pointed out by someone in another post (it’s late so I will look up the reference tomorrow) how do you distinguish between the VCs caused by importation versus those created deliberately as part of the editing process (the context of the original post was with respect to mass deletions of the VCs, except of course that the imports may actually be the edits you want to keep)!!

This means that the importation process would need to be enhanced to provide the automatic promotion but the advantage of trying to sort it out after importation is the ability to review and control what stays, the import or the existing database and what about “legitimate” VCs for one photo it might be possible to have the [M] and [1] in the database and [2] and [3] come in as part of the importation process could that ever be resolved by any bulk process!?

It is a minefield and I need to be up early tomorrow!!

What good is a database that needs to be trashed that often? Why waste energy and disk space on creating it over and over again?

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While this sounds logical, it increases the risk of losing information, e.g. if an external app messes up an XMP sidecar file.

I prefer DxO’s current approach because it creates a distributed backup of the database by storing settings as well as metadata metadata in the .dop files.

@JoJu The database does not need to be trashed if you use it the way that it was intended to be used, i.e. on one system.

The “issue” comes if you want to have multiple systems attempting to access a pool of photos across a LAN where there are two databases and two applications dishing out DOPs with “competing” Uuids. Similarly if you move an external drive, HDD or SSD etc. between two (or more) systems the same thing will happen.

Where I have encountered the problem in the past was DxO 11 versus PL4 and more recently PL4 versus PL5 and I wanted to understand what was going on (yes running PL4 and PL5 at the same time on the same directory is real “fun”)!!

My multiple “trashings” at the moment are as a result of me exploring these issues and wanting to repeat tests with a database that I can easily “peek” into and see the results in the database to compare with the DOP etc… Prior to these recent tests I have rarely “trashed” my PL database.

Here we are laying this at the door of DxO but are there any lessons to be learnt from Lightroom, Capture 1, Photo Mechanic etc., all of which have SQLite databases, and your workflow with these systems?

One remark in general on synchronizing computers, it’s quite difficult to delete items. When an item is deleted on one pc it will come back with next synchronization.

George

@George One real problem with PL5 is that once a directory has been seen and imported it will not be forgotten by the database, the database will hold onto the details regardless of the data on disk!

When I was talking about “promoting” incoming DOP entries so that they effectively replace those in the database rather than getting tacked to the database entry as Virtual Copies I omitted to emphasis the point that PL does not have an explicit import function, it just “discovers” “new” (to it) directories and promptly adds them to the database.

I have seen in posts from some time ago with requests from users to be able to get PL to ignore directories, i.e. to add an import directory function to PL. Personally I hate the Lightroom ingesting process and have always loved the simplicity of the DxO approach but that “freedom” comes at a price. If PL discovers a directory it is importing DOPs, ‘xmps’ and all as soon as the user navigates to that directory.

If you are using only one system that is wonderful, if not then PL is not going to forget that directory regardless of whether it still exists on disk (haven’t verified this so another test coming on) and if it crops up again and any Uuids do not tally then…

I have found as I use an external DAM if I forget to add key words through it first (pl doesn’t see them if done after processing) I can copy the folder, delete the contents in pl than copy the folder back to pl, it than sees the editing and keywords. I use this keeping a desk and laptop identical to enable procesing away from home.

@John7 That makes sense I hadn’t got round to testing that so deleting the directories via PL5 eradicates them from the disk and the database. The situation that concerned me was deleting them from disk (not via PL5) when I suspect that they will remain in the database.

One thought that I have but requires DxO to implement it is to have a preferences options

  1. To write Uuid free DOPs (or a DOP with a special “wildcard” value) and then overwrite the database when importing such DOPs or create VCs if the date of the incoming DOP is earlier than the date of the database entry or…
  2. While this would work for future implementations another option would be needed to ignore DOPs with Uuids that exist from before such a strategy.
  3. The date time check could be made optional i.e. always accept the incoming DOP and overwrite the database editing details etc.
  4. I have not even vaguely explored all the ramifications of such a scheme.
  5. I have directories in the database where I have managed to screw up PL5 so I also want an option where I can leave the data intact on disk but expunge the directory from the PL5 database!

Problems only tend to arise if you swap between computers on a regular basis.

If you ingest your camera’s files onto your laptop and work on them in PL there, as long as they have never been seen before on your desktop computer, all you have to do is to copy them, together with their DOP (and XMP) files to the desktop machine. Your desktop will then add them to its database and function perfectly normally.

However, if you were then to work further on those images and then copy them back to your laptop, PL on your laptop will quietly blow its cool in trying to reconcile the original versions that it knows about in its database and the versions of the DOP files it will then read from the files you have just copied back to the laptop.

As long as you only ever perform a one-way move (not a copy) from your laptop to your desktop, thus deleting the originals from your laptop, you shouldn’t have any problems.

I would like to see an option where PL does NOT store metadata for visited directories so that you can explicitly catalog a directory. It would also be nice to have the ability to un-catalog a directory. You then have full control over what is in the database.

I feel rather out of control with how everything is as it stands now. I would also like to have the ability to have multiple databases and you can then select which one to use. LR and PMP do this.

Looks like a reason to delete the database once a time and have PL build a new one.

George

I think I understand now, and thanks for all the above. Apparently there are two (or more) scenarios. What I will not do, is have two (or more) computers, each with PhotoLab, which I use back and forth, each containing new PL information ever time I do this. I might very well end up with a folder on each computer with the same name, as the folder names are generated by Photo Mechanic. I have no intention to do anything like this.

For me, I will always use my desktop computer when I am at home, and always use my laptop when I’m away from home. Since Photo Mechanic names folders based on the date, thanks to what you’ve all written I will refrain from editing photos on any given day with both computers. This means I will not have the problem we are discussing up above… and means anyone in this forum that uses two computers can avoid any issues as long as they don’t ever end up with the same folder names on both computers. PhotoMechanic can prevent this issue, if we allow PhotoMechanic to name folders in a logical manner.

(Not sure what happens when I visit India, and the “time” photos are taken is based on local time, but I suspect PhotoLab only applies to the TIME, and ignores the TIME ZONE.)

Is there a potential problem if someone crosses time zones, as in when I travel to/from India, or others travel to different countries? Does PhotoLab use the local time, or does it consider the time zone?

@mikemyers I am glad it makes sense, when I write some of this stuff late at night I sometimes wonder if it makes sense (to me let alone anyone else)!

There are a raft of issues that need to be resolved if DxO were to go down the path I “suggested” however there are timestamps in the DOP and I don’t believe that they currently control (gate) anything (needs checking because I asked @sgospodarenko a question about this in a post PL5 Repair creates "surprise" straight line selection elements while attempting to create a circular mask! - #11 by BHAYT and the response was

Having got Svetlana’s response I then “ignored” it because changing Uuid’s was easier and produced the results that I was looking for, instant VCs! I will try a test where I change the timestamp in the DOP (leaving the Uuid alone) and see what happens?

In truth I do not believe it is hard to implement such a scheme nor to take timestamps into account or simply (optionally) ignore them(!) but DxO have other development priorities, 5.1.1 has just been released.

I will test @John7 idea of deleting a directory to clear a path for (re-)importing except that there is no command to delete an entire directory! Deleting the contents as John actually stated is possible so I will test that. However, renaming a directory is possible to e.g. _saved_2021-12-17 and that will keep some options open to prevent complete loss of the data but might then pose problems later!

Sadly PL5 is not a full blown photo file manager and has no copy, move etc commands for files or directories but when you think about the work necessary behind the scenes to keep the database in step that is not really a surprise!

Its the image folders I work with, not data base. If images are added to the DAM after being added to PL doesn’t pick up the keywords added in the DAM for export. Fooling it into thinking its a new folder of images works and it adds the keywords.
I use Syncovery for backing up (just the) changes between desk and laptop and the only program I run to pick up changes or added keywords is Photo Supreme on the receiving machine. If I don’t do that the images can’t be found by a search or any added keywords can’t be used when adding images on that machine. PL just accepts the edited images no problem, no virtual images or anything. BUT clearly I have to ensure both lots of programs are the same versions.

@KeithRJ, some of your wishes have been catalogued in here:

Hypothetical question. Suppose I’ve been using PL5 for the past few months to take photos of, say, penguins. Then I decide that for future access, I want to create a brand new folder, Penguin-Photos (or whatever), and using Finder on a macOS computer, I drag all the folders from where they were into this new folder I’ve created.

My question - will PhotoLab just accept this new file arrangement and work with it the next time I open PhotoLab.

Follow-up question - suppose I have Penguin photos on bot a. desktop and a laptop. I assume I can copy those over from the laptop as I’m already doing, and PhotoLab will accept this.

Assuming keywords for each image, and ratings for each image, and so on, will be stored in a file along with the image file and the .dop file, so if I’m moving full folders around (not just individual images) everything should still work well.

I’m assuming that there is no way now, and no way planned for the future, where all these images can be placed on a “server”, so more than one person can work on images simultaneously. (This would be wonderful for the eye hospital I volunteer at in India, but I’m assuming it’s not possible.)

@mikemyers I am just a user like you but one that got very curious about how/why I was encountering Virtual Copies and tried to create a test that would narrow down the reason for their creation, hence the various posts that identify the “problem”.

I did carry our the tests I suggested with respect to dates etc. I had already done them for Ratings etc. in the past and basically “hacking” the values does not work, PL5 uses the database values to undo the hacks on the next DOP update, it may not actually realize that the values have been hacked but is simply doing a DOP update, i.e. copying the database contents to the DOP because my “hack” changed a file date/timestamp!

This changes if the Uuid is changed, PL5 immediately recognises that something has changed in the DOP and a Virtual copy is instantly created. If any other fields have been changed and all the changes are made before the Uuid change and the DOP then saved then the new Virtual copy will include the changes.

If you change a directory name then PL5 is perfectly happy with that and when you navigate to the newly named/re-named directory PL5 will not greet it as a long lost friend but as a brand new friend (according to my tests).

Similarly if you add new photos to a directory they should be recognised for what they are, new items! Ratings are already stored in the ‘xmp’ sidecar file as are keywords etc, only the tag (rejected etc.) appears to be stored only in the DOP. Keywords in the DOP currently appear to be ignored if you change them by hacking the DOP PL5 will restore the DOP to the state it has in the database and undo the hack.

If you remove the DOP and update the ‘xmp’ file with new keywords etc. that should be acceptable, PL5 should use the edit values it has in the database to create a replacement DOP. (Needs to be verified)

But if you want to introduce new editing from another machine via the DOP then you are heading for a problem because you are going to get a Uuid clash and Virtual Copies, unless you remove that photo from the target system. You can delete via PL5 but I tested deleting via file manager and adding the photo back in and it appeared to work just fine (I need to repeat the process with the DOP “hacked” to give it a new Uuid just in case the test is faking good).

PL5 is only interested in photos etc. in the context of the directory they are in, throughout my testing I am using copies of the same base set copied to a new directory and tested/re-tested and there have been no issues.

The final question is not one for me I am not a DxO developer just a user who should be editing his photos not “hacking” PL5!!! It is a question for DxO and like all such requests for new developments must compete with those that DxO believe will give it a competitive edge or at least maintain their position.

I hope that this helps and the tests with photos deleted and replaced fits with the way that @John7 is using his systems (I believe).

I need to make a disclaimer that what I write here is based almost entirely on basic testing of the product but I can get things wrong although most of the above has been tested and I stand by what I have written with the caveat that should means I need to do some more testing!

At the moment, PL5 has a bug wherein it fails to properly record time zone in output JPG images for the ‘original date/time’ tag, as shown attached screenshot. Instead of the time zone in the original raw file, it records the time zone as “00:00”. However, the ‘digitized date/time’ tag records the time zone properly, e.g., “06:00” I’ve reported this as a bug to DxO but haven’t heard anything back. PL4 didn’t have this bug.

I haven’t been to a different time zone since Covid, but there may be time zone problems with PL5. For what it’s worth, some photographers always set their camera clocks to UTC to minimize such problems (not just w/ PL5…).

Here is a different setup that solves some problems you are having but might be creating new ones. I have a desktop and a laptop, one on windows 10 and one on windows 11. I store all my images in OneDrive via the Lightroom catalog (I use LR about 10% of the time). I process most of my images in PL 5 (much preferred to LR) on either my desktop (which has a very poor 32-inch monitor currently) or my 13-inch laptop with a 4K screen with good color. All image files are on OneDrive. To speed up getting through large numbers of images from a long photo shoot, my latest process is to do the initial culling and processing on the desktop and the final edit on the laptop to make final color adjustments and any further cropping or exposure adjustments as required. I am doing this way because the laptop sometimes chokes on heavy processing of hundreds of images. The two different versions of PL5 on different computers can usually see the adjustments made on the other computer. I can fairly easily switch back and forth. When I travel, I can store fresh images on OneDrive and can access all existing images, provided I have a decent wifi connection. If not, I can store them locally and transfer later. I do get notices from Windows about duplicate files (not images) created by PL5 but Windows saves a version with a slightly different name, and I move on. I will be making some hardware changes in January but plan to stick with cloud storage. I think this will work long term, but I am a little concerned I am causing future problems. I will read this thread a little more carefully when I have time and learn about the PL5 database quirks. Before someone asks, I have a terabyte of storage on OneDrive from my wife’s family subscription to Microsoft Office and another terabyte on Google Drive that comes with Google Fiber.

As I read what you wrote, IF your desktop is a better “computer” than the laptop, cpu, memory, etc., then it sounds like a good-size calibrated monitor would be best for you. You could probably. use it on both your computers. That means spending several hundred dollars, at least. Since your images are going to eventually go on your OneDrive, and since your laptop “chokes” on too many files, that’s one more reason for getting a newer display, (preferably in addition to what you have now, not “instead of”). A year or two ago, everyone here insisted that before I do anything else, I needed a calibrated display. Without it, I was just wasting time.

My gut feeling was to get my images edited, before filing them away. If you do this on your laptop, everything will be fresh in your mind. That’s one of my problems right now - I spent a week away, captured lots of images, came home, and copied them to my desktop - but now I’m fighting to find time to work on them, as I’m always doing NEW stuff. I am a happier person if I can work on images the same day I took them. If so, it’s “fun”. A week later, it starts to feel like “work”.

But the flip side to that is while I’m away, I’m constantly finding new things to do, and unless I stay up half the night, I don’t get a chance to work on the images I just took…