I really like the idea of HEIC images. It’s the same kind of improvement as H.265 gives over H.264 for video, and in fact I think they are technically related. DxO just need to consider whether to get in early (now), or wait until there is a real groundswell. If such a thing ever happens.
Personally, I rarely open a JPEG in PhotoLab and would be equally unlikely to open a HEIC, as most of the power of the application is unavailable. But exporting a HEIC is an interesting proposition, as there are obvious benefits for many uses even today (like generating an archive of images in far less space than even JPEG).
I just looked at several graphics applications I own. Retrobatch, a dedicated graphic processor, will happily convert to HEIC. Lightroom Classic, Affinity Photo, and Squash (another dedicated graphic converter) will not. Though they will all read them. Also, Flickr does not accept HEIC images and I suspect many other photo sharing sites would not, either.
So here’s something that shocked me tonight. I wondered what was browser support like for HEIC images. Short answer… not a single browser supports it! Not even Safari. I think this really paints the picture that, despite it being the internal format for iPhones, in their millions, it’s just not mainstream yet.
While awaiting DxO’s decision (ahem) regarding support for HEIC files, I’ve been exploring partial workarounds. In the Apple App Store, I found “The Image Format Converter” app by Dongwook Cho (developer) costing about 3 USD or thereabouts. This app for my iPhone 13 mini will convert HEIC files to TIFFs, will embed the Apple Display P3 profile in the converted files, and will perform batch conversions. The many other converters that I’ve tested either covert to JPGs only, or if they will convert to TIFFs, will only apply sRGB color metadata. Maybe there are other converters that do this trick, but I have not found one.
After transfer of the converted TIFFs to my WIN 11 setup, DxO PL5 will open the files just fine and allow editing as usual. However, I’m not really sure what PL is doing under the hood with the embedded Display P3 profile. Using, converting, or ignoring? It might be nice to edit full-size TIFFs and print with a wider-than-sRGB color space. Hope this pans out.
Did you do a quality check against the free HEIC to JPEG tool from iMazing? I.e. is there a perceptible difference? I found it impossible to distinguish the HEIC originals from 100% quality conversions with the iMazing tool. I was expecting to see a difference, so results went against expectations. My sense is that Apple (at least as far as the iPhone 11 Pro and iOS 13) is not taking advantage of the higher potential colour depth in HEIC but only using it to save space when saving images.
Alec – as suggested, I converted a few iPhone 13 mini images from HEIC (8-bit depth) to JPEG using the iMazing HEIC Converter. Interestingly, the iMazing converter also embeds the Display P3 profile (but doesn’t convert to TIFF). I did not see much, if any, difference viewing any of these files on a standard sRGB or Adobe RGB non-HDR display or on the iPhone Super Retina XDR display. Theoretically, I suppose there could be something at the extreme yellow/red or blue/green edges, but I did not really test that. As for color advantages per se, as you concluded, not impressive.
I repeated these tests after making the HEIC to TIFF conversions I discussed in the previous posts, exporting image files from DxO PL5 with different embedded ICC profiles (sRGB, Adobe RGB, and Display P3). Again, I was not impressed by any display color differences. I suppose a proper experiment would involve using a few standard wide gamut test images or targets, viewing on displays and/or printing on an Adobe RGB capable printer.
I should add that the iPhone “hdr” HEIC brightness effect is a prominent feature of the native images viewed on the iPhone display (people love it or hate it). That effect seems to be stripped out or degraded after passing through these converters or exported through DxO PL5.
I began this odyssey looking for a workaround to edit HEIC files in DxO PL5. At present, you must convert the HEIC files. A conversion to TIFF with an embedded Display P3 profile still looks like as good a place to start as any. At least it can fit into my usual printing workflow (Adobe RGB TIFF) and involves no extra steps. And one can always export sRGB JPEGs for display purposes.
They also use the HEIC containers to hold the “live” aspect of Live Photos and for depth information used in their Portrait Mode photos (faked depth of field).
Yes, the Apple HEIC variant of the HEIF container format has lots of potential, but it is underutilized (dumbed down?) for iPhone photography. Smaller files, sure, that’s a plus, and the embedded Display P3 profile may offer some advantage for printing. But 8-bit color on iPhones that are fully capable of more? And I doubt Apple is going to change anything here. ProRaw on the more expensive iPhones is where the action is and it’s way better for Apple’s business.
That’s a pretty thin link Platypus, with almost no data or real comparison. It reads like it’s written for grade three schoolchildren.
Real world comparison – theoretical advantages of HEIC not apparent in iPhone images apart from the smaller size. If HEIC can archive 16-bit as well as TIFF at a tiny fraction of the space, then HEIC would be a useful archive/output master format. I’m not sure it can. I worry when putting data into a proprietary format. Surely there will always be converters which can convert away from HEIC to the new format which does replace TIFFS after all, with 16-bits in a high compression format.
FastStone Image viewer seems to have done a good conversion job on a batch of HEIC files a friend sent me recently. It’s under Tools > Batch convert.
The settings when converting to Jpeg provide for Photometric: No Change and for Colour Subsampling to be disabled. I can detect no difference between the original and the result other than that the Jpegs are more than twice the file size. FastStone calls both 24bit.
Not been following this one and I suspect most users are interested in support due to iPhone use, however…
The new Fujifilm X-H2 supports the HEIF image format.
Maybe they will remain an outlier or maybe other companies already support it, I have no idea, however if its being used by a ‘proper’ camera and not just a phone then its time realistically for DxO to look again at inclusion of the format as maybe this is the start of wider use, plus from a personal perspective, if ‘my’ camera is to be supported I want full support if possible.
Anyway. Just thought I’d add as for those that don’t shoot or follow Fuji news they may not be aware (or care!).
Supports HEIF image format
X-H2 supports the HEIF image format, which delivers 10-bit image quality in files up to 30% smaller than standard JPEGs. The next chapter in delivering high-quality results straight out of camera has officially begun for X Series.
It’s worth noting that HEIF is a container format. There is no guarantee that what’s inside a Fuji HEIF will be anything like what’s inside an Apple HEIF. In fact, I’d be fairly sure they would be quite different. As such it’s not like supporting JPEG and… in my estimation… more complex than supporting differing RAW formats.
I have no idea or to be honest any real interest in the discussion beyond curiosity and after noticing the new camera supported the format thought I’d mention.
If there is no ‘standard’ to the format though and each company can interpret it as they see fit then I can understand DXOs reluctance to support.
Of course those wanting it to be supported may care nothing more than Apples version(s) being supported.
I think it is probably a correct statement that there would be a lot more users of iPhones than of this Fuji camera, even years down the line. But then again, how many iPhone shooters want something like PhotoLab? It would be an interesting statistic to know.
oh I wasn’t suggesting the release of Fuji’s X-H2 mattered and was a sole reason or even a big enough justification to now start support, just that it appears the format may be making a transition to ‘proper’ cameras and not just phones.
Let’s be honest though in terms of market share no camera is going to have a bigger market than Apples has with the iPhone and that to me would be big enough reason to support at the very least Apples interpretation of the format.
With regards to how many shooters want something like DXO though, who knows but plenty on here want it to be able to also support the camera they have in there pocket more often than their proper camera (assumptions of course but I’d expect likely accurate!) and as the iPhone (and indeed other brands) cameras get ever more ‘powerful’ and ‘better’ and most seem to have some form or RAW ability if wanted then the chances of someone wanting to make use of what DXO offers increase.
Whether they would get beyond something like the free Snapseed or even Adobes paid for offerings because they are in the App store is I guess a completely different discussion.
As it stands though. Even if they wanted to use PhotoLab they can’t so are having no choice but to look elsewhere.
Clearly the earlier iPhones were worth supporting and the cameras on the newer models are increasing steadily in quality, so it does not make sense to me why there has been no support added since iPhone X. That’s for RAW, I assume (never bothered trying RAW on iPhone nor iPhone shots in PhotoLab), but it seems like Apple is off the table for over 4 years now.
But then again, how many iPhone shooters want something like PhotoLab? It would be an interesting statistic to know.
I do.
I’ve been using DxO for over 10 years, and the proportion of photos I take with an iPhone has grown each time I’ve upgraded to a newer one. The ability of the camera module to handle tricky lighting situations without clipping, produce clean images in low-light conditions, and vary the field of view improves with each generation and means I bring an interchangeable-lens camera with me less and less.
I just bought photo lab 6 and had no idea they do not support HEIC. I put in a support request but dxo keeps closing my ticket with NO response at all.