Artificial Intelligence on PhotoLab: what do you expect for?

Thank you all for your very interesting comments.

I agree with @Corros. AI is very performing to recognize patterns, objects or even concepts in a picture. It is this property that I propose to use in #1 AI mask. But it is only a help for selecting specific areas of the image, not an automatic “creative" or “artistic” transformation. I expect to apply by myself my own and custom recipe.

For #2 AI high light recovery, I expect better results in high light recovery. In overexposed channels, information is lost, that means there is no difference between the 101% and 120% signal levels. Even if you reduce the signal globally to 70% (for example), conventional interpolation can not decide if the resulting level is 70.7% or 84%. It is exactly what happens when you reduce the brightness with U-points, for example: a sad and ugly grey. But, by an AI analysis of near areas of the overexposed zone, and completed by a library of similar cases coming from an adequate trained model, it would be possible to approach a predictive and realistic value for each overexposed pixel. It never would be as precise as a real arithmetical transformation obtained with perfect exposure, but I will be satisfied with this result to improve my photos with my limited and imperfect settings! More seriously, even with fine tuned exposure, overexposure is often an inevitable compromise due to the limits of the dynamic of CMOS sensors.

#4 Noise removing improvement

Even if, with Prime, DPL has today the best result in noise removing, AI approach could be useful to improve noise removing results, as the proof of concept presented by Nvidia:

DPL competitors are probably looking at this carefully if they want to get back on race with DxO on noise removing.

#5 For AI-assisted DAM, it would be very useful, but I think DxO is not the best competitor for this. Google, or even Adobe, with their cloud services, can take advantage of an inexhaustible database to train their own algorithms.

Do you see other useful AI applications for DPL? AI scene modes, AI makeup for portrait, AI motion blur removal… Why not? :wink:

3 Likes

Hi all,

“AI” is indeed more a buzzword than anything else. We could perfectly claim, for example, that our Smart Lighting is AI, as it changes lighting in your photos “intelligently” in function of a couple of decisions taken by looking at them. It even has a mode where it optimizes exposure for faces detected in the photos. So why does our marketing team nor claim AI for this? Probably they should, but the feature is several years old, it was released even before AI became a buzzword, probably they just did not think about it :wink:

However, AI has improved a lot in recent years, due to some breakthrough research work in “neural networks”, which is one specific way to implement AI. This does not necessarily mean that every feature on the market claiming AI these days does use neural networks. But the progress in neural networks is the reason why AI became such a buzzword.

Does DxO plan to use neural networks? Definitely. We have some promising prototypes here.

Will our marketing team claim AI when these features will be released? Definitely :wink:

What will we use them for? That’s a question that I cannot answer here, partly because we prefer to keep it secret until it’s available and partly because we have yet to decide which prototypes will make it in the products. Remember that we’re not as big as Google or IBM, so we have to focus. That being said, we see PhotoLab more as a tool to develop photos than to edit them. Therefore, currently at least, sky replacement is not at the top of our list.

Please go ahead with your wishlist, it will help us in arbitrating where to put our efforts.

Have a great day,
Wolf

15 Likes

I went to university to do a degree in computer science in the early '90s (I was in my late 30s at the time). One subject we studied was IKBS (Intelligent Knowledge Based Systems) - a forerunner of AI.

We learnt that part of the process of creating knowledge systems was called knowledge elicitation - basically gathering knowledge from experts to feed into the system, to enable the system to make decisions based on that knowledge. At the time, one of the perceived problem was that experts were not going to be willing to contribute their expertise, only to be made redundant by the machine that would replace them.

What several of us had problems with, and often discussed strongly, was the difference between a knowledge base that could be consulted in decision making and the algorithm for an actual decision making process.

All current computers rely on binary logic (either yes or no); something that can prove rather limiting in the real world in which we live. There are often decisions that have to be made to which the answer isn’t a simple “yes” or “no”. Sometimes the answer can be “maybe” or “it depends” and, although we can create “degrees” of yes-ness or no-ness in the same way that we can have multiple shades of a colour in a digital image, the result is always either yes or no at a certain level; it is impossible to represent just a little bit more or less than a precise value.

Also, a neural network needs “training” in how to make the right decisions. But what happens if the decision can be equally valid in either of two possible directions? How do you decide which of the decisions is right? The example of a self-driving car comes to mind once again; should the car avoid a collision with the vehicle in front, which has suddenly braked, at the expense of hitting a pedestrian, or should it “take the hit”, risking injuring its own passengers and those in the car in front, in order to save the life of the pedestrian?

Any “feature” in software that claims to be “intelligent” has to have a knowledge base on which to make its decisions and the algorithm that makes those decisions has to be written by someone - whose idea of yes or no may not coincide with ours.

One of the assignments on my IKBS module involved writing 3000 words on “can a machine possess intelligence?”. I discussed the nature of God, the nature of man, quoted from the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy and postulated the need for ternary or even quaternary logic. In the end, my conclusion had to be no, a machine cannot possess intelligence; at least as it is commonly accepted at a human level.

Do we really need more and more AI in DxO? Maybe, or maybe not, it all depends on the purpose.

I would argue that DxO does a pretty amazing job with features like Smart Lighting and ClearView +. Are they truly AI, or more the result of an awful lot of real intelligence from programmers who know their domain very well?

I class myself as a photographer. Part of my 50+ years of experience meant learning how to expose as perfect a negative as possible in the camera, knowing the end result I wanted, and knowing how I was going to develop the negative to achieve the best possible density and contrast to achieve the best possible print by drawing up a printing plan for dodging and burning under the enlarger, finally developing the paper, washing it to remove any residual chemistry and carefully drying the print in a dust-free environment.

All that takes real intelligence - in other words, practice and making lots of mistakes on the way - also known as learning.

Nowadays it seems that photographers no longer want to learn their craft. Instead they want to be able to take thousands of pictures, let a computer decide which is the best, let a computer examine the picture and decide how to make it better and, one could argue, abdicate responsibility for the finished result to a piece of software.

Personally, I don’t feel that AI is anything other than a marketing buzzword, designed to give people the impression that they don’t have to do any work - it can all be done “by magic”.

No, PhotoLab should not offer things like sky replacement - the has nothing to do with photography and everything to do with a poor photographer who is not willing to admit that not every picture is possible and may need a return visit. Here’s an example of a large format image I made several years ago; it took five return trips of 150 miles before I was able to get the sky, the lighting and everything else that makes the picture. Graduated filters used on the lens at the time and no digital post-processing involved, apart from removing the dust spots from the scanned transparency.

DxO should continue to do what it does extremely well - providing the best RAW processing software out there. Sure, if using AI on the blurb makes more sales, go ahead. Should DxO spend inordinate amounts of time and effort dreaming up ideas to justify that term? No. There will always be those that want a Swiss Army penknife tool to do all the work for them. Just continue to be the best single purpose tool a photographer can find :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

16 Likes

I agree.
With or without AI to achieve this goal.

Thank you @wolf for your interesting input.

One more thing… maybe for the marketing team… just skip AI word and go straight for Quantum :crazy_face:

4 Likes

An “AI Mask” would be very useful to apply different settings to the subject (the “sharp” thing in the picture) and the bokeh.

To be more specific, I wait patiently for the first software which will be able to correct easily some aberrations or defects in the bokeh and/or improve it. Google, Apple and the others can create a fake (sometimes too fake) bokeh from scratch, but from traditionnal demosaicing/retouching softwares I have yet to see something that can specifically improve a few things in the already existing OOF areas :

  • removal of the outlining
  • removal of the onion rings
  • removal of the longitudinal chromatic aberrations
  • why not improving cat’s eye effect by making eye shaped bokeh balls more rounded
  • adding additional blur to an already existing bokeh (simulation of a wider aperture)

There are a few sliders on a lot of software who can be used to modify and soften the bokeh, and 'AI mask" are getting better at recognizing subject/sharp areas, but to my knowledge there is nothing specifically intended to modify the bokeh in its key features which are observed and debated since decades : soft or harsh bokeh, swirly or not, melty or with distinct discs, with or without onion rings, with or without outlining. Nothing.

3 Likes

Nice idea @Ayoul

Thank you @wolf for your response.
It is a good new that DxO is still investing in advanced R&D and is preparing amazing new features for DPL… :wink:

About the wish list, I am going to add another AI implementation:
#6 AI sensor’s dust removal
Removing one by one every dust on my pictures is probably the most tedious task of developing photos. Copy-paste helps a bit when I have a series of images, but I always still have to adjust manually some spots on the background.
I would like the AI to successfully perform this step without any manual intervention.

Sorry for the marketing team, it is not a remarkable AI-feature that would make PhotoLab irresistibly unique, but it would be very useful to me, and to others I guess!

5 Likes

@Ayoul +1 for removal of the onion rings. It’s so complicated to remove:slightly_frowning_face:
And I would like an AI to be able to detect plans in order to simulate the depth of field

Hi,

For me sky is the element that can take me some time to fix (colors, burnt areas, or just blank sky) and would be great to have this functionnality in Dxolab.

another one : allow recomposing with contents aware filling

Please don’t take this the wrong way but, if you used ETTR (expose to the right) metering, then you wouldn’t need to fix this kind of problem.

Basically, in manual mode, take a spot meter reading of the brightest part of the sky, then over-expose by between 1 ⅔ and 2 stops.

2 Likes

Thanks Joanna, i meant to change skies, for instance when it is cloudy and you would like blue sky instead. But i must admit, i would like some more basic functionnalities in Dxo before that…

I don’t think PL need a sky replacement tool yet, there is some software out there doing so and most are, well… you can tell its fake. I think PL need to empty the backlog and work on more needed enhancement.

7 Likes

I fully agree, but i am not the one who opened the thread :wink:

Congratulations to the development team for the implementation of deepPrime, the first AI tool (revendicated)!
:grinning:
First samples seem very impressive.

For all, the requested AI features’ list is still open. To be continued…

5 Likes

Automated tagging can definitively take advantage of AI/ML. In particular, I would love to have integrated (wildlife) species identification…

1 Like

My take: DxO is not a DAM application and shouldn’t inspire to be one. This type of functionality would overcomplicate the app and there are much better solutions for this out there. I personally think there shouldn’t be any auto-tagging besides maybe opt-in for search indexing purposes (so not writing it to the keywords field).

4 Likes

Hello,

to my mind, an element is to be taken into account : Competition. Dxo is not alone on the market, only way to survive is innovation. Deepprime is an good example. But in some years, can Dxo survive being only an excellent derawtiser. Maybe, if their business model is to remain a niche product for passionate and some pros that accept to have a bunch of softwares in their workflows.

Is automated tagging a must have : not for me. Can it bring more customers to Dxo, probably yes, especially if competitors offer some functions. AI is probably first marketing, but if some functions can help to process pictures faster, why not ? It would give more time to take picture.

As for me i would rather like the software to improve local adjustments ergonomics and functionalities in the first place.

That is just my opinion

Previously I was using Lightroom, Aperture, and more recently ON1 Photo RAW, as my main DAM + photo editing softwares…
Since I don’t like to have to switch constantly between applications (more ressources usage, not fully compatible or through intermediate and limited format like TIFF, various interfaces, etc.), I’m now using PhotoLab as my main (limited) DAM.

@florisvaneck, I can get that you do like to use PhotoLab as a sole Photo Editing tool, without disturbing DAM features. Then why not having various available configurations, so to hide at will the advanced DAM tools?

Hey @Man, to follow on your comment, it will become harder for DxO to dramatically improve the existing editing tools without introducing too much complexity. Of course, there is still room for improvements, like the ones you mentioned. But I don’t think it will by itself attract new users (and/or renewals). That’s why enlarging the focus of PhotoLab is a way to maintain and even increase the revenues in the years to come…

I understand that. And limiting amount of tools is great. However, if you start thinking like that, the next request from someone is Facebook integration, and then the next one an iPhone app, and the next one Virtual Reality support and so on and so on… this leads to bad software.

The main reason why Lightroom is so bad in terms of performance is because of bloat that build up over the years. Good tools stay lean and every now and then get rid of unused features. Apple is very good at this, although they always tend to overdo it.

If you want a good DAM with all these options: IMatch or Photo Supreme. Also, they don’t bite your DxO workflow at all and all metadata you add there exports in DxO.

So DAM would be on the bottom of my priority list. But hey, I am not the developer of this software. Just sharing my thoughts and trying to manage expectations a bit.

DAM light is someone I could live with… which means very basic title/caption/keyword and maybe color label support to interface better with other applications. Everything else is bloat… e.g. GPS tagging would require mapping provider integration, completely new interface, internet dependency etc.

2 Likes

I like the approach that the IMatch DAM has taken to automated tagging: Users have the option to subscribe to whichever automated tagging solution they prefer (e.g., Google, Microsoft, etc.). That way users can decide which if any autotagging application they want to use (and pay for themselves - although these services offer a certain number of ‘free’ lookups). I haven’t used any of these myself. Regarding integrated (wildlife) species ID, I don’t know if there are any of these presently available. However, iNaturalist.org does provide species ID suggestions if you upload images.

Hello,

After the first implementation of an AI tool in DPL with DeepPrime, here is the summary of our AI wishlist:

#1. AI mask
Select quick masks of parts of the image, assisted by AI. For example: sharpness mask (automatic detection of areas of maximum sharpness with an opacity gradient depending on the transition between sharpness and blur); sky; faces and skin; vegetation, etc.

#2. AI highlight recovery
An AI tool for recovering/simulating “lost information” in overexposed areas in a realistic way. It will be very useful for cloudy or white skies in landscape pictures, or colored spotlights that appear white because they are overexposed. Maybe an AI algorithm could restore their natural color, despite their overexposure.
In short, a way to improve the current performance of DPL in the recovery of highlights (a weakness for the moment, in my opinion) and I hope, to overtake the competitors.

#3. AI restoration after perspective transformation
It would be very useful to widen the crop after ViewPoint transformations. By recreating “out of original picture” areas with AI algorithms, it would be possible to complete the empty parts of the frame by a “realistic” pattern, copied from closest areas of the picture (sky, vegetation, grass, rocks or concrete ground, etc.).

#4. Noise removing improvement
Done: it is deepPrime! :+1:

#5. AI-assisted DAM
It would be very useful for those who use a DAM.

#6 AI sensor’s dust removal
I would like the AI to successfully perform this step without any manual intervention.

#7. AI help to select to best picture of a series (new)
AI could assign a score to each picture to help choose the best one among a series of similar pictures. Examples of criteria: sharpness score (the best sharpness), portrait score (those where the eyes are not closed, orientation of the gaze, smile, etc.), bokeh score (where the background is clean); strength of the composition (rule of thirds, symmetry, etc.). A help to eliminate quicky the pictures that will not never be good, to avoid demosaicing them just to find out they do not worth it.

#8. AI Object detection and replacement (new)
You select very roughly an area of the image, AI precisely selects its boundaries and replaces it with the background. Magic!

Please don’t hesitate to come up with new ideas: a new DPL is coming!

Regards,

3 Likes