Any news on the next version (5) of photolab?

DxO PhotoLab
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Well, I’m not making “excuses”, I’m just saying what I think. Before I switched to Apple, I ran Windows, and there were constant updates. Before anything, I had a Nokia phone, which also had many updates - but some of those updates “broke” my phone.

I’m not going to make any excuses for Apples junk MacBooks with no ports and a miserable keyboard - I voted with my wallet, and I’m still running my 2015 MacBook Pro. It seems like they have finally listened.

I used to work for a software company in a previous life, and they/we were constantly releasing updates, far more than once a year. I got moved to “tech support” searching for bugs, and I was good at it I think. As we found bugs, they were fixed/patched/updated… I have no complaints with Apple updating their macOS yearly, but it seems I am constantly getting notices to down load updates - as they find bugs, the fix them, not waiting a full year.

I have no idea what DxO does, or doesn’t, but having gone through so, so many editors, I finally found PhotoLab, and for ME, it’s the best there is. Yeah, I spent over $100 for the update, but what I paid is less than what I expected - and I don’t yet even know what is different between PL4 and PL5, except for the fact that they FINALLY will work with images from my Fuji camera with the X-Trans sensor. If that was the ONLY change they made, I would still have gladly bought PL5.

Meanwhile, I suppose I have a choice of macOS, Windows, or Linux. And I have access to Apple Tech Support, and when I have a problem, they connect to my computer and figure out what is wrong. I never, ever, got anything like that from Windows.

Anyway, I’m not making excuses for Apple - most of the time, I like what they do, and an older OS can still be used today - I have a 2012 MacBook Pro, that is so old I can’t update it at all. Regardless, it is still running smoothly, although I rarely use that computer.

Sometimes I wonder how large a company DxO is, and how many software engineers they have working on these things. Personally, I think they’re doing quite well, with a much smaller staff. And keep in mind that DxO offers a complete, NEW, release, and we are free to take our copies of PL4 and even PL3 and use them on other computers, if we have that many.

Oh well, I hope I’m not sounding argumentative, I’m just saying that I have a different way of seeing things, and I’m certainly not going to switch to a different image editor because of these things. (I started computing with IBM Punch Cards, and my expectations are much lower than other people’s expectations…)

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Computers from 2012 can run Catalina, systems from 2013 can run Big Sur. I don’t want DxO being stopped from using modern APIs and other MacOS features because a few dinosaurs are too stubborn to move on from a 3 year old OS. If you’re following your 2 year upgrade cycle suggestion doesn’t that mean you should have moved on to Catalina by now?

I have used every version of MacOS since Tiger, some were better than others, but for the most part they have all be very useable. I feel like you’re just reading what Apple “influencers” complain about. TouchBar was great, and I miss it, losing a Thunderbolt port for a HDMI port on the new machines is dumb. I agree the butterfly keyboards were bad.

My M1 MacBook Air has been flawless, and if losing compatibility for old versions of MacOS helps me get better support for my M1 into PhotoLab I’m all for it.

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Or: a few people who are not concerned by the race for novelty; and above all, who need macOS Mojave (for exemple) to run certain specific software.

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To me is more about “symmetry”: using an old OS (for any valid reason) but also wanting to run the latest and greatest applications, is not going to work…This may work for a year or two, but at some point you’ll face, again and again, the same problem, each time.
This is a “trade off” that you automatically sign for as soon as you buy a computer/software…
Continuously upgrading is the new normal, and if you “stop” you are automatically “left behind”.

Not saying this is great, but this is the (IT) reality.

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In that case, if you don’t want to run two physical computers, you can always use something like Parallels to create a Mojave virtual machine to run the older software on the same box.

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Et c’est précisément pourquoi je vais resté tranquillement « left behind » et que vous avez perdu un client (fidèle).
C’est sans doute plus ennuyeux pour vous que pour moi, qui vais faire des économies bienvenues…

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Mike is comparing Apple to Windows. It’s like the guy in the gulag archipelago being moved to a conventional prison – it seems like paradise to him. Hot food, heated rooms. For those of us who have been on Apple for decades and who enjoyed the freedom and stability of OS X while Steve Jobs was alive (from OS 10.3 to 10.6.8 with a couple of decent releases afterwards in 10.8 and 10.11) and while the Mac was still on a two-year release cycle – the current one year release cycle and dumbed down OS is like being moved from Vienna or Paris or Moscow (all great cities) to a conventional prison.

Here’s the deal Steven, we understand that the latest PhotoLab is not going to support six versions back of the OS. But that’s a poor excuse not to support the last three or four. When OS X was on a two year release cycle, supporting two OS was just about justified. Now that we’re on a one year release cycle, it simply shows an incredible lack of respect for your customers and your customers’ time. DxO will pay for this policy of cutting off customers early.

Just because “everyone else” (i.e. Adobe and Apple) does it is no excuse for bad behaviour. DxO is a small company. You have to take care of your customers and woo them if you want to grow. Those two didn’t become industry giants by blowing off customers. Ethically, the “everyone else” argument is weak justification for bad behaviour, whether for school children or software developers.

@Skagoat Well that’s some loaded language there “dinosaurs”. Last time I checked dinosaurs roamed the world 500 million to 65 million years ago. To minimise down time and software conflicts, most edit studios and creative people have kept their OS two to three cycles back. I.e. as Big Sur is the current release, edit studios would be on High Sierra or Mojave. This was back when OS were on a two-year cycle btw. I.e. the life cycle support for professional software was at least three cycles which worked out to six years, not two. Effectively DxO has chosen to place PhotoLab in the category of non-professional software.1

It’s only naive and primitive consumers thirsty for the latest pointless hype who are foolish enough to install brand new OS.

I’m not sure if in your breathless Apple fandom you noticed but PhotoLab is a cross-platform app. As a cross-platform app, PhotoLab is rarely using the latest technology from either OS but rather independent libraries which run equally well on both platforms and probably quite successfully support OS back to 10.13 High Sierra still.

The minimum support which DxO should be providing here is for Mojave. DxO would have a good case this year to drop High Sierra support. At PhotoLab 4’s release, DxO should not have dropped High Sierra yet either. That meant cutting off all the 2011 MacBook Pros (EOL on High Sierra). I made some noise then, hoping that DxO might pay attention for PhotoLab 5. Last time was in some ways worse, as PhotoLab 3 was a real dog, adding good features to PhotoLab 2 (healing brush) but which simply didn’t work well with very serious performance issues. PhotoLab 4 at least is a solid release, albeit with weak points in masking and colour manipulation, which seem to have been mostly fixed in PhotoLab 5.2

It’s not that DxO has to support Sierra and High Sierra forever, it’s that DxO is at least one OS ahead of where it should be in removing support.

But fine DxO makes its own choices. Choices have consequences however.3

  1. Counter example: latest version FCPX usually requires the latest OS -1. FCPX belongs to Apple. Apple’s mission is to sell more computers and push people onto their latest services. The economics justify abusing its users. DxO does not share in Apple’s revenue so following this model is just silly.
  2. Don’t misunderstand me. I’m enthusiastic about the new features and really want to use them. I even have a bunch of Fuji X-Trans images which I’d like to dig into with PhotoLab 5. I’m not one of the people who doesn’t think PhotoLab 5 is a solid release in terms of features even if there’s still some real pain points DxO has not addressed. There’s no support for either iPhone or Android DNG which is a clear own goal. Most photographers have high end mobiles and shoot quite a bit on their iPhone or Pixel. We’d like to be able use the same tool to work on those images which we use to work on our dedicated camera images, knowing full well that the results will not be the same.
  3. CaptureOne offers much better masking and colour manipulation than even PhotoLab 5. We’ll see what the system requirements look like for C1 22 (C1 21 supports 10.13 High Sierra, it wouldn’t surprise me if C1 didn’t move the OS requirement forward this time as PhaseOne knows that it cuts off some still popular computers). Perhaps I’ll be a PhaseOne customer going forward, only leaning on PhotoLab for noise reduction for high ISO images. What I won’t be doing is running my main applications in virtual machines with the performance penalties and problems with file management that entails.
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The whole discussion is silly. If DXO still supported Mojave this year, support would then be removed next year. Then you would have to replace your machines only next year…wow

C1 will probably remove support for Mojave next year. They won’t support it forever either.

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A year is nothing to you? You are a lucky man…

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Every year it is the same old refrain :notes:

If I chose macOS it is exactly because Apple is going forward instead of building on the same old bricks like MS does with Windows.
Even on the hardware side Apple is now taking the lead and leaving Intel behind.

Old computer, old OS, old sofware or limited functionalities. That’s it, there is no miracles and you know it perfectly well.

Many people complain about performances and M1 native App… and on the other side… people want new functionalities with old architecture.

Don’t you see the nonsense ? 😵‍💫

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I apologize for not being as superiorly modern, as wonderfully reasonable as you :confounded:

I’ll stop the discussion here, and I’ll go take care of photography on my obsolete equipment.

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Don’t be sorry.
I am sorry.
That wonderful world where every single person is happy is not yet a reality but we can all make an effort on our side to tend to this :smiley:

Happy photography, with old or new hardware and software :+1:t4:

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Mojave does not seem to get security updates anymore.

macOS Big Sur runs on hardware from late 2013.

Maybe it’s time to replace the 7+ year old hardware with something new. You don’t have to like it, but that’s the way things are in IT.

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Yep, you are SO right - I used to love Windows, and wondered what all the fuss was being made over Mac computers, and decided to find out for myself and bought a 2015 MacBook Pro. Windows quickly became history for me.

I think a huge number of Apple software engineers have shifted in a new direction, replacing the Intel chips with their own chip. If you have time, check out this article from Steven Levy in Wired Magazine’s “Plain View” series:

https://www.wired.com/story/plaintext-inside-apple-silicon/

Also, while Apple seems to have a full update on a yearly cycle, and a new name for the OS, during each year there are constant updates. I am now on macOS Big Sur version 11.6 and I expect to get another update in the very near future.

To me it feels like being “stuck with” using an old OS for many years, vs. getting (FREE) updates every year.

I understand that many Windows users prefer to stick with Windows 7, having hated Windows 8 (I hated it too!), and in my case, I tried to update my old Lenovo W530 laptop to Windows 10, but that was constantly changing with more updates. Now there’s Windows 11, which may or may not work on my old Lenovo, but I’ve long since forgotten how to even do an update.

I’m not an Apple Fanboy, but I certainly do prefer Apple software. Nothing is perfect.

I used to use Lightroom, then tried lots of other software. I preferred to OWN my version of Adobe software, not rent it, but renting is so inexpensive I still have both Photoshop and Lightroom - but rarely use either. For reasons I can’t fully explain, PhotoLab seemed to me to be the best of all of them, and meeting some wonderful people in the DxO forums has helped me tremendously.

Not much more to say - my only negative thoughts about PhotoLab are that I couldn’t open images from my Leica M8 and my Fuji X100 cameras - and while I haven’t tried it yet, I see the Fuji is now supported. I’ll try that out sometime this week.

…but one question for Alec Kinnear - why do you feel Apple’s newest software releases are “dumbed down”?

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Well, we don’t agree - to me, the best software they can would imply very frequent updates, removing bugs and adding improvements, and especially so getting their software and hardware optimized on their new in-house “chip”.

I don’t see things the way you do, and to me, “marketing” mostly refers to hardware. Apple’s software releases are free, for as many computers as you own, assuming the updated software will run on them.

I don’t (yet) own an Apple computer with an Apple chip, but I expect my next computer will have it.

There’s another thing to consider - with an Apple product, if I have a problem, and/or get stuck, I can call Apple, and they will connect to the computer if needed to help me solve the problem. That alone would keep me on Apple - for all other suppliers or vendors, the first question for support is when I bought it, after which they tell me how much it will cost to talk to one of their support people.

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It’s only like that because of bootlickers and imbeciles and the profane (can’t blame this last group, not everyone can be a specialist). Sadly among those who should know better there are fewer and fewer independent thinkers or people with ethics or backbone. Is it what they put in the water (Roman Empire collapsed because of lead in the piples)? Is it the constant barrage of radio waves? Is it the constant noise of advertising and clutter of commerciality? Is it the constant financial pressure on every middle class household? Is it the relative absence of children in many people’s lives?

Whatever is causing it, the degeneration is clear.

@mikemyers You asked:

why do you feel Apple’s newest software releases are “dumbed down”?

I suggest you start by reading Lloyd Chambers’ guide to core rot along with his blog posts about the bugs he’s found in OS X. OS X is missing many advanced features now and much less reliable than it used to be. Apparently this is the second time I’ve posted the link but perhaps you missed it the first time.

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I read the first page. Some things I agree with, others (such as the Aperture app which no longer exists) are not really applicable. I don’t use iTunes at all, my Time Machine has worked perfectly every time I needed to move things to a new computer, OS updates - yes, they are fast, but apparently necessary, and I’m used to updates such as on my phone, and even on my cameras.

I can’t comment on how any of this relates to developers, as I don’t know enough, but that doesn’t have any effects good or bad on how I use my Apple computers, or before my Windows computers. I wouldn’t know the first thing about a 10-bit video card driver, but I am please with the video I get on my sort-of-old ASUS display. The iMac video is not even close to calibrated, but it’s designed for average users who need the iMac to work well in any environment - the brightness adjusts accordingly.

He complains about “shallow” features useful only for beginners or entertainment, but those people also want to use the computer. Put them in front of a Linux computer, and they would be lost. Apple makes it easy for beginners, and others - I’m not sure how “advanced” I am, but I sometimes struggle with some of the more technical settings, and when I look at “Activity Monitor” I still don’t know how to interpret what I see into useful information - but I’m getting better.

He’s right - the “real talent” has undoubtedly been diverted, but I think it was diverted into Apple making designing their own chip, which will greatly improve their products in my opinion. As to “truly reckless programmers working on areas they have no business touching”, I think that’s a silly comment - they probably had no business in designing their own CPU, but look at the results.

As to finder hiding key files, so does Windows, to prevent an amateur from breaking things. They all can become visible for people who know how to use that, and make use of them. That’s also why there is an “administrative” mode, and a “user” mode. I think that’s playing it safe. He also writes that the system is going downhill for serious work - but what is “serious work”? For me, serious work is photography and video, and Apple bought and improved Final Cut Pro for video, and it seems to be an excellent home for PhotoLab.

He never mentioned “support”. I can call Apple’s 800 number for support on any Apple device I own, no matter how old, or any Apple software, and get advice on my question - and they will gladly connect to my screen, telling me what to do to correct issues. If that person can’t do so, they get a Senior Advisor on the line, and I’ve only once had a problem they couldn’t correct, even by collecting data dumps from my computer after crashes. It turned out to be something from T-Mobile, right after an update, and both of my iMac computer crashed at exactly the same time after turning on “FaceTime”. I figured it was T-Mobile’s “Wi-Fi Calling”, as when I shut that off, no more crashes. I then made a trip to India, and when I got home and updated, the problem was gone.

After reading what he wrote, I can understand what you mean by Apple’s newest releases being “dumbed down”, but that makes total sense when you consider that most(I think) of Apple’s users prefer it that way. As far as I know, it doesn’t prevent more experienced people from doing what they need to do, but I have no way to know that one way or another.

I have found issues that I reported years ago, and as far as I know, they never got fixed. Apple Mail was terrible with attachments, which I fixed by installing Microsoft Outlook as part of Microsoft Office, but while Outlook fixed my issue, it no longer allowed me to change image sizes in attachments. So, I was screwed, and now I’ve got both applications - normally I use Apple Mail, but when necessary I use Outlook. I also installed “MimeStream” mail, but I haven’t used that recently.

Nothing is perfect. Apple isn’t, and never will or can be perfect, and I doubt Apple users would or could ever agree on what “perfect” should be. To me, they seem to be working very hard at constantly improving their computers and software (and sometimes for reasons I can’t understand, they make horrible computers like the MacBook Pro for the past several years, with no ports and a silly keyboard that nobody liked.

Last thought - I don’t see any choice for myself other than Apple. I have no desire to go back to Windows, or go back even further to Linus, or go back way further to Unix. Maybe for me it’s a case of “if you can’t beat them, join them”. I dunno. Maybe Windows 11 will bring Microsoft back into the game, but I’ve never had a chance to try it - and to be honest, I doubt I would switch even if I could.

I’m not trying to change your mind.
I’m just suggesting that there are people, such as myself, that are pleased with Apple computers and Apple software (and I accept that there very well be things I don’t do, that would be more difficult on the Apple computer, as I think you are describing).

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Apple is the richest company in the world. They could built better OS, stop dropping popular pro software (Aperture) for cost-cutting reasons or just for the hell of it (Final Cut Studio, FCPX took seven years to achieve feature parity and become usable for long format again), stop building computers which can neither be repaired or upgraded, stop putting in fake water damage indicators, stop trying to sabotage right to repair, start paying their taxes.

Again you’ve been so traumatised by years on Windows that you do not perceive the steady drop off in quality since 2012. Both Lloyd and I are very long time Mac users so it’s easy for us to compare. It’s not the first time there’s been trouble at Apple. The Amelio years were terrible with uninspiring computers with an unstable dead end operating system with nothing better in sight. Then OS X was originally about embracing open source and Unix with open arms, providing a great default framework and allowing users to customise their machines. Now Apple spends more time deliberately breaking things to make it impossible to manage or tweak OS X oneself than actively improving the software.

Apple (with new brother-in-arms Adobe, both champion subscription software, recurring revenue and suffer from executives far more worried about this month’s stock price than the long term future of their company) is like the formerly talented, charming and hard working neighbour who has become rich and with his wealth become an arrogant lout.

DxO is like the poor neighbour who sees the rich guy behaving like a lout and decides that the way to become rich is to behave like a lout. Specifically by minimising compatibility, refusing to add much demanded features (processing of iPhone DNG) and blowing off their users’ needs.

But I wish you’d all stop focusing on Apple. I’ve given up hope on Apple and buy as little as possible from Apple, while still continuing use Apple computers. Apple’s disregard for the environment, right to repair, warranty service even under Apple care and local tax obligations are unforgivable. But I’m not here to talk about Apple if the over-excited upgrade zealots could stop using Apple’s bad behaviour to justify DxO’s own bad behaviour.

The company here I care about is DxO. DxO is a European company, small enough to reform and is still close to its original creative roots. I’d love to see DxO prosper and grow.

I’d really like to continue to actively support DxO but DxO does not support us. OS -1 is an actively customer-hostile policy.

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Amen! Me too!!

…and this DxO Forum is a wonderful place to do so.

Oh, you may enjoy reading this:
https://www.wired.com/story/macbook-pro-ports-magsafe-design/

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I think you’re missing the point, which is (to me) that DxO gives me worse macOS compatibility than comparable products. (Non-subscription at least; I have no idea what Adobe is doing these days.)

If I’m not mistaken, when I bought PL1 DxO had the same support as C1. Since PL4 that’s no longer the case. C1 20 and 21 both supported High Sierra, and I suspect 22 will support Mojave (since they haven’t dropped two OS versions on the past). Exposure X7 supports High Sierra and is the most impressive of this lot: X6 also supported High Sierra, and X5 had support all the way back to Yosemite if I’m not mistaken, and this with something like 8 employees that provide far better support than I’ve experienced with DxO. DxO seems to drop one macOS version with each release as a matter of routine.

Of course there’s a limit to how many releases is feasible to support. I’m quite happy with Apple providing OS support for 8 year old hardware and Exposure’s flexible approach to macOS support, but all DxO is giving me is another reason to use other products since I have no other need for new hardware right now.

I like PhotoLab, but I’ve been using it less over the last year because of your policies: poor macOS support, no real backwards compatibility of rendering with version handling of dop files, loss of the license for a previous version at upgrade, and the idiotic (sorry) need to contact support when I want to move my current license to another computer and their questioning of it; moving an old version is out of the question since I no longer have a licence. By the time other products eventually force me into new hardware I will probably have no reason (and no upgrade path) to return to PhotoLab.

That’s my experience.

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